Brian Bell (00:00:51): Hey, everyone. Brian Bell (00:00:51): Welcome back to the Ignite podcast. Brian Bell (00:00:53): Today, we’re thrilled to have Max Sinclair on the mic. Brian Bell (00:00:56): He’s the founder and CEO of Azoma, a portfolio company and fair disclosure. Brian Bell (00:00:59): He’s also ex-Amazon product lead who helped launch Amazon Business in the UK, Brian Bell (00:01:04): Amazon Grocery, Brian Bell (00:01:04): and amongst other things. Brian Bell (00:01:06): He’s steeped in e-commerce, Brian Bell (00:01:08): the content space at least, Brian Bell (00:01:09): and now leads one of the earliest AI SaaS plays to optimize for AI-powered search. Brian Bell (00:01:13): Thanks for coming on, Max.
Max Sinclair (00:01:14): Pleasure to be here. Max Sinclair (00:01:15): Thanks for having me, Brian.
Brian Bell (00:01:16): I was telling you before we started recording, Brian Bell (00:01:18): my favorite kind of episode to record is with my founders. Brian Bell (00:01:20): So I’d love to hear about your background for the audience and kind of get your origin story.
Max Sinclair (00:01:25): Yeah, sure. Max Sinclair (00:01:25): So I went straight to Amazon out of university. Max Sinclair (00:01:29): I worked at the company six years. Max Sinclair (00:01:31): I know you did as well. Max Sinclair (00:01:32): I think that’s kind of Max Sinclair (00:01:33): one of the things we bonded over.
Brian Bell (00:01:34): Right.
Max Sinclair (00:01:35): Yeah.
Brian Bell (00:01:36): OP1, OP2, six pagers.
Max Sinclair (00:01:39): Yeah. Max Sinclair (00:01:39): All of that good stuff. Max Sinclair (00:01:41): And I, I, yeah, I guess my, my career started in account management. Max Sinclair (00:01:45): I was, Max Sinclair (00:01:45): you know, Max Sinclair (00:01:46): as you said, Max Sinclair (00:01:46): in Amazon business, Max Sinclair (00:01:47): I then went, Max Sinclair (00:01:48): you know, Max Sinclair (00:01:48): I mean, Max Sinclair (00:01:48): crucially forwarding now worked in search and in IDQ as they called it in Amazon, Max Sinclair (00:01:53): uh, Max Sinclair (00:01:53): IT and data quality. Max Sinclair (00:01:54): I was in charge of the browsing customer experience for the launch of Amazon in Singapore. Max Sinclair (00:01:59): And then, yeah, came back and headed up a grocery in the EU. Max Sinclair (00:02:02): And yeah, Max Sinclair (00:02:03): I guess the origin story of the business is I went on something called Entrepreneur Max Sinclair (00:02:07): First, Max Sinclair (00:02:08): which is a little bit like cross of The Apprentice and Love Island. Max Sinclair (00:02:12): I don’t know if US listeners will get. Max Sinclair (00:02:14): No, I think we know about it. Max Sinclair (00:02:15): They know about it. Max Sinclair (00:02:16): Okay.
Brian Bell (00:02:16): Yeah, yeah.
Max Sinclair (00:02:17): So you kind of, Max Sinclair (00:02:18): you’re on this, Max Sinclair (00:02:18): you know, Max Sinclair (00:02:19): quite my job to go on it and you’re on this full-time program for four months. Max Sinclair (00:02:22): I tried to meet a co-founder and I guess the timing was very fortunate because I Max Sinclair (00:02:26): left Amazon to do this in September 2022. Max Sinclair (00:02:29): Those remember November 2022 because that’s when ChatGPT launched. Max Sinclair (00:02:34): So me and my co-founder, Max Sinclair (00:02:36): were experimenting with pre-Chat GPT, you know, GPT-3 in the API. Max Sinclair (00:02:42): We were looking at the early diffusion models that were coming out of stability at the time. Max Sinclair (00:02:46): But very quickly after ChatGPT launched in November of that year, Max Sinclair (00:02:49): we had the thesis that this was going to be the future of search. Max Sinclair (00:02:53): And we initially thought on marketplaces. Max Sinclair (00:02:55): So we initially thought this was going to be the future of how Amazon and Walmart Max Sinclair (00:02:59): and these guys would, Max Sinclair (00:03:00): you know, Max Sinclair (00:03:00): display their products to their customers. Max Sinclair (00:03:02): because it was so obvious that an LLM was such a better experience than what I had Max Sinclair (00:03:06): worked on at Amazon. Max Sinclair (00:03:08): And in the old days of Amazon, Max Sinclair (00:03:10): as you’d know, Max Sinclair (00:03:10): you type in kind of brown t-shirts and you’d get all sorts of different colors Max Sinclair (00:03:14): because all the sellers would be keyword stuffing and the AIs weren’t smart enough Max Sinclair (00:03:18): to value the image as part of how they should rank the product. Max Sinclair (00:03:21): They didn’t understand the context of the user’s questions or keywords often, Max Sinclair (00:03:24): and they would show irrelevant stuff. Max Sinclair (00:03:26): They wouldn’t, you know, use as much data as they Max Sinclair (00:03:30): of the customer search behaviors they will do now. Max Sinclair (00:03:33): So we thought this was, you know, going to be the future and started building Azoma then really. Max Sinclair (00:03:38): And it’s now been three years. Max Sinclair (00:03:39): We’re over seven figures in revenue. Max Sinclair (00:03:41): We have Colgate. Max Sinclair (00:03:42): That’s huge. Max Sinclair (00:03:43): Congrats. Max Sinclair (00:03:43): Thank you. Max Sinclair (00:03:44): And Colgate, Mars, Arla, HP.
Brian Bell (00:03:46): Especially for early investors. Brian Bell (00:03:48): This is really big for us.
Max Sinclair (00:03:49): Exactly. Max Sinclair (00:03:50): Well, we’ve been growing very, very rapidly.
Brian Bell (00:03:53): Self-congratulatory tap on the back for myself here.
Max Sinclair (00:03:57): 10x this year so i think it is very interesting that’s crazy first two years of the Max Sinclair (00:04:01): business we were showing people you know amazon sellers science papers and going Max Sinclair (00:04:06): hey look there’s an llm in the algorithm you guys need to do stuff differently and Max Sinclair (00:04:10): that was literally the sales pitch i would do to people like share my screen on on Max Sinclair (00:04:14): amazon science be like look this is what’s happening you guys need to optimize and Max Sinclair (00:04:17): for two years it was very hard to get people to we had you know early adopters you Max Sinclair (00:04:22): you know, Max Sinclair (00:04:22): and I’m very grateful to them and, Max Sinclair (00:04:24): you know, Max Sinclair (00:04:24): built the product in partnership with them. Max Sinclair (00:04:26): But it took a certain type of personality as a seller to really care about their Max Sinclair (00:04:31): science papers and want to try, Max Sinclair (00:04:33): you know, Max Sinclair (00:04:34): wacky stuff to optimize LLMs. Max Sinclair (00:04:36): Now it’s obvious and everyone wants to do it. Max Sinclair (00:04:38): And the AEO and GEO are like, Max Sinclair (00:04:40): you know, Max Sinclair (00:04:40): new terms that we would never be using, Max Sinclair (00:04:42): you know, Max Sinclair (00:04:43): when we started doing this.
Brian Bell (00:04:44): Maybe you can break those terms down. Brian Bell (00:04:45): So the last... Brian Bell (00:04:47): you know, generation and was SEO, right? Brian Bell (00:04:49): And it started just like you described it, just keyword stuffing. Brian Bell (00:04:53): You’d put like white text on white backgrounds and stuff like that. Brian Bell (00:04:57): And yeah. Brian Bell (00:04:58): And then Google, you know, privy up to that. Brian Bell (00:05:00): And so they would release a new model every month or quarter, Brian Bell (00:05:03): and then you’d have to go redo all your SEO. Brian Bell (00:05:05): But now you, you just threw out a new term, which is AEO, like AI.
Max Sinclair (00:05:10): Yeah. Max Sinclair (00:05:10): So the term, Max Sinclair (00:05:11): the one I like the best is onset engine optimization or AEO, Max Sinclair (00:05:15): because I think it best encapsulates what we are trying to do, Max Sinclair (00:05:19): which is
Brian Bell (00:05:20): Answer engine optimization.
Max Sinclair (00:05:21): Exactly. Max Sinclair (00:05:22): You know, Max Sinclair (00:05:23): when you ask an answer engine like ChatGPT or Perplexity or Amazon Rufus or Walmart Max Sinclair (00:05:27): Sparky a question, Max Sinclair (00:05:29): customers are going to expect an answer. Max Sinclair (00:05:31): They’re going to expect the answer to that question. Max Sinclair (00:05:33): And like sometimes that answer will be a, you know, product recommendation. Max Sinclair (00:05:38): And that’s what we’re helping our service recommendation. Max Sinclair (00:05:40): And that’s what we’re helping our customers with is to be recommended by these AI engines.
Brian Bell (00:05:44): Yeah, I love that. Brian Bell (00:05:45): So maybe reflecting on, Brian Bell (00:05:48): you know, Brian Bell (00:05:48): the last three years, Brian Bell (00:05:50): I’m sure it’s flown by really fast, Brian Bell (00:05:52): but maybe for founders listening or about to, Brian Bell (00:05:55): they’re sitting at their Amazon desk and their, Brian Bell (00:05:58): you know, Brian Bell (00:05:58): fifth review of their six pager with their skip level. Brian Bell (00:06:02): Tell us about that, you know, taking the plunge. Brian Bell (00:06:04): What do you wish you knew then that, Brian Bell (00:06:06): you know, Brian Bell (00:06:06): now kind of looking back and what would you, Brian Bell (00:06:08): how would you advise people, Brian Bell (00:06:10): you know, Brian Bell (00:06:10): drudging it on in corporate life, Brian Bell (00:06:12): thinking about making the plunge?
Max Sinclair (00:06:14): well my first thing would be it was the best decision i ever made and i remember Max Sinclair (00:06:18): calling up my my grandpa who’s no longer with us and kind of having this offer for Max Sinclair (00:06:23): entrepreneur first and saying to him you know i kind of i was kind of in the market Max Sinclair (00:06:27): for a new thing like i you know you kind of i think you reach your natural point in Max Sinclair (00:06:32): in corporate jobs where you’ve been in the role for like two years or so and you Max Sinclair (00:06:35): know either i’d been promoted and it’s kind of like you know Max Sinclair (00:06:39): what’s next kind of kind of view um and i applied to a few things i applied to Max Sinclair (00:06:44): google i applied to and then entrepreneur first because i had a friend who worked Max Sinclair (00:06:48): there and i and i’ve always wanted to you know i had been doing like startup ideas Max Sinclair (00:06:53): on the site and i kind of had the view that these would never work because i had a Max Sinclair (00:06:57): pretty intense job it was like you know eight to six you know i was managing a team Max Sinclair (00:07:01): of about 15 so like Max Sinclair (00:07:03): all the challenges and and fun that comes with like managing people plus as you say Max Sinclair (00:07:08): delivering projects for my skip managers and all that great fun stuff so i would Max Sinclair (00:07:12): probably have like an hour or two you know every other evening and then maybe some Max Sinclair (00:07:16): time on the weekend where i would like explore startup ideas but they never went Max Sinclair (00:07:21): anywhere because i could never commit any real time to them and then you know so i Max Sinclair (00:07:24): applied to entrepreneur first Max Sinclair (00:07:26): with the view of if I’m going to do something, Max Sinclair (00:07:29): if I want to do this, Max Sinclair (00:07:30): which I wanted to do, Max Sinclair (00:07:31): I should probably commit myself to it fully because it wasn’t working just kind of Max Sinclair (00:07:35): like playing around with ideas for half an hour.
Brian Bell (00:07:37): What is entrepreneur first for folks listening? Brian Bell (00:07:39): Don’t know what that is.
Max Sinclair (00:07:40): So that’s the speed dating thing I was talking about. Max Sinclair (00:07:42): It’s speed dating for founders. Max Sinclair (00:07:43): It’s an accelerator. Max Sinclair (00:07:45): You go there as a solo founder and you meet a co-founder. Max Sinclair (00:07:49): They have it in San Francisco, I believe. Max Sinclair (00:07:51): They have it in London. Max Sinclair (00:07:52): They have it in Toronto, which is where I went on it. Max Sinclair (00:07:55): But they didn’t have it there anymore. Max Sinclair (00:07:56): They closed that. Max Sinclair (00:07:57): But they have it in a few places around the world. Max Sinclair (00:07:58): New York, I think, as well.
Brian Bell (00:07:59): So you go there and you just meet a bunch of co-founders. Brian Bell (00:08:02): If you’re a CEO, a business person, you can meet a technical co-founder and vice versa.
Max Sinclair (00:08:07): Exactly. Max Sinclair (00:08:08): So they accept about 20 commercial people and about 30 technical people onto the Max Sinclair (00:08:13): program, Max Sinclair (00:08:14): which is amazing if you’re commercial because it’s something we quickly realized, Max Sinclair (00:08:17): which is like actually technical talent is not the bottleneck. Max Sinclair (00:08:19): The bottleneck is like a product market fit and something that has a good idea. Max Sinclair (00:08:23): There’s, you know, at least when I did it, there was this kind of Max Sinclair (00:08:27): balance of you as a commercial person you were more looking for a customer pain Max Sinclair (00:08:33): from an industry that you knew and you’re looking for someone who like had a unique Max Sinclair (00:08:38): technical skill that would solve that pain and like the kind of that melting pot of Max Sinclair (00:08:43): your unique understanding of an industry and your co-founders unique technical Max Sinclair (00:08:47): expertise hopefully could build a business right and that business would be special Max Sinclair (00:08:51): that only you two could build because of those things so in our case Max Sinclair (00:08:55): As I said, I had a deep e-commerce and search background. Max Sinclair (00:08:58): My co-founder is a PhD in postdoc and AI, Max Sinclair (00:09:01): had built a machine vision company, Max Sinclair (00:09:04): really understood what was happening in the gen AI space. Max Sinclair (00:09:08): So we were uniquely positioned to build this Azoma answer engine optimization company. Max Sinclair (00:09:13): And, Max Sinclair (00:09:14): you know, Max Sinclair (00:09:14): many, Max Sinclair (00:09:14): many of the different founders, Max Sinclair (00:09:15): you know, Max Sinclair (00:09:16): everyone had their own background commercially and technically. Max Sinclair (00:09:19): And you’re kind of like going around trying to like see if there was, Max Sinclair (00:09:22): you know, Max Sinclair (00:09:22): that could match. Max Sinclair (00:09:23): And those two puzzle pieces could link in like a unique and interesting way.
Brian Bell (00:09:27): And so so you guys start out and you’re building for a while. Brian Bell (00:09:31): And then at some point there’s an inflection of growth. Brian Bell (00:09:34): Tell us about that and kind of what unlocked that.
Max Sinclair (00:09:37): So we started the company in 23. Max Sinclair (00:09:40): We went on Techstars in 24. Max Sinclair (00:09:41): So we’re out in the bay. Max Sinclair (00:09:43): eBay Ventures were the LP of that. Max Sinclair (00:09:45): So we were talking about optimizing e-commerce for LLMs back in early 24. Max Sinclair (00:09:52): And still nobody thought this was a thing. Max Sinclair (00:09:55): And I remember being in the eBay offices and we had a mentor from eBay and we went Max Sinclair (00:10:00): to their offices a few times. Max Sinclair (00:10:02): and trying to explain to these senior VPs at eBay of like, Max Sinclair (00:10:05): hey, Max Sinclair (00:10:06): LLM is going to be the next way that eBay search is going to work in a year or two. Max Sinclair (00:10:10): And they’re like, no, they’re never going to cannibalize the ads business. Max Sinclair (00:10:14): This is never going to happen. Max Sinclair (00:10:15): This is a bad idea. Max Sinclair (00:10:16): So we were still like, it was still a really contrarian belief in 24. Max Sinclair (00:10:22): I think since the start of 25, Max Sinclair (00:10:24): and just a mass like they’re just march the march of chat gpt adoption it kind of Max Sinclair (00:10:29): became on and that forcing gemini and google to do ai overviews i’d say that was Max Sinclair (00:10:35): kind of the start of 25 when this went from bringing like a frontarian Max Sinclair (00:10:40): you know, Max Sinclair (00:10:41): really edged thing that only really early adopters would be interested in, Max Sinclair (00:10:44): in terms of customers to like, Max Sinclair (00:10:46): everyone’s interested in it. Max Sinclair (00:10:47): It’s really obvious that people are discovering stuff with chat GPT and Amazon Max Sinclair (00:10:51): refus is, Max Sinclair (00:10:52): you know, Max Sinclair (00:10:52): like Google itself has like changed, Max Sinclair (00:10:54): you know, Max Sinclair (00:10:55): suddenly like everything’s getting in IO view from Gemini. Max Sinclair (00:10:57): And that I say was 25%. Max Sinclair (00:10:59): And, Max Sinclair (00:11:00): you know, Max Sinclair (00:11:00): as we discussed, Max Sinclair (00:11:01): like you’ve seen like a bunch more startups kind of enter the space, Max Sinclair (00:11:04): you know, Max Sinclair (00:11:05): around that time that it became very obvious. Max Sinclair (00:11:07): And that was the inflection point as well. Max Sinclair (00:11:09): And yeah, we’ve 10xed revenue basically in the last 10 months. Max Sinclair (00:11:13): So we, you know, we’ve been riding that inflection point as well.
Brian Bell (00:11:16): yeah so do do you feel like you have product market fit and how do you know so i Brian Bell (00:11:20): think i would define product market fit as giving repeatable value to customers and Brian Bell (00:11:25): i would be very i’d be very cautious to say yes and the way that i would define it Brian Bell (00:11:30): as yes is that we have had a number we’re an enterprise company and we’ve had three Brian Bell (00:11:34): enterprise companies where we’ve had a pilot in the tens of thousands and we’ve Brian Bell (00:11:38): signed annual deals in the hundreds of thousands
Max Sinclair (00:11:40): So in three independent cases, Max Sinclair (00:11:43): we’ve kind of proven the value of the service and we’ve 10x the contract value for Max Sinclair (00:11:49): a year and extended it as well. Max Sinclair (00:11:51): We’ve gone for more brands or, you know, larger scope, more marketplace, whatever. Max Sinclair (00:11:55): So I think we have signals that we have product market fit. Max Sinclair (00:11:59): based on the fact that like the customers want to buy more of our stuff and they’re Max Sinclair (00:12:02): willing to pay like a lot more to expand it but i think it’s i would be it would be Max Sinclair (00:12:07): careful i mean it’s it’s not you know i i think we are given we’re like seven Max Sinclair (00:12:12): figures of revenue and and growing very quickly i think i think it’s fair to say
Brian Bell (00:12:15): like we’re approaching product market fit i love that somebody uh said i don’t Brian Bell (00:12:19): remember who but product market fit feels like the market’s grabbing you by both Brian Bell (00:12:22): nostrils and pulling you out of the office i’m paraphrasing a little bit but
Max Sinclair (00:12:27): Well, we definitely have that. Max Sinclair (00:12:28): But to me, to me, there’s like sales market fit and product market fit. Max Sinclair (00:12:31): Like we definitely have sales market fit. Max Sinclair (00:12:33): Like we are basically completely inbound driven, has always been inbound driven. Max Sinclair (00:12:37): We’ve never run any paid ads. Max Sinclair (00:12:39): You know, Max Sinclair (00:12:39): like we, Max Sinclair (00:12:40): you know, Max Sinclair (00:12:41): if you see my LinkedIn, Max Sinclair (00:12:41): I get like hundreds of people from like all sorts of customers. Max Sinclair (00:12:45): commenting on the link on our linkedin and and like you know wanting to put demos Max Sinclair (00:12:49): we we have really strong i mean we built a brand in this space because we’ve been Max Sinclair (00:12:53): talking about this for so long that people you know like it’s now very fashionable Max Sinclair (00:12:57): to talk about aio and generative a geo but we’ve actually been like reading these Max Sinclair (00:13:02): science papers for three years and like we’ve got two patents we’ve been building Max Sinclair (00:13:05): this we’ve got case studies Max Sinclair (00:13:06): So I think we definitely have sales market fit where like the customers want to buy Max Sinclair (00:13:10): our product. Max Sinclair (00:13:11): Then the question is like, are you delivering repeatable value to the customers? Max Sinclair (00:13:15): Which is like a second step and really hard. Max Sinclair (00:13:17): And I think, you know, signals would say to me, yes. Max Sinclair (00:13:20): And I would say like, you know, I mentioned a couple of the brand names we have. Max Sinclair (00:13:24): Some of them are on the annual deals. Max Sinclair (00:13:25): Some of them are on pilots. Max Sinclair (00:13:27): If we convert some of these like six months pilots to annual deals and they’re Max Sinclair (00:13:31): seven figure deals in the new year, Max Sinclair (00:13:33): then I’d say, Max Sinclair (00:13:33): yeah, Max Sinclair (00:13:33): we have product market fit.
Brian Bell (00:13:34): Yeah, love that. Brian Bell (00:13:35): So that’s a really interesting thing that you said there, Brian Bell (00:13:38): which is we haven’t done a lot of outbound.
Max Sinclair (00:13:40): Right.
Brian Bell (00:13:41): I mean, that’s when I think you know you have the right thing at the right time. Brian Bell (00:13:46): Because a question I might ask you if you’re pitching me is like, Brian Bell (00:13:50): hey, Brian Bell (00:13:50): what’s your distribution wedge? Brian Bell (00:13:51): And if you tell me like, hey, we’re growing... Brian Bell (00:13:53): you know, Brian Bell (00:13:54): some, Brian Bell (00:13:54): you know, Brian Bell (00:13:54): high, Brian Bell (00:13:55): you know, Brian Bell (00:13:55): mid double digit 40, Brian Bell (00:13:57): 50% a month without any outbound. Brian Bell (00:13:59): This is just inbound people coming to us asking for demos. Brian Bell (00:14:02): That’s pretty compelling.
Max Sinclair (00:14:03): Yeah. Max Sinclair (00:14:04): Well, that’s why it’s a good investment. Max Sinclair (00:14:06): Yeah. Max Sinclair (00:14:07): Yeah. Max Sinclair (00:14:08): It’s true. Max Sinclair (00:14:09): Like we, we have three salespeople in the company. Max Sinclair (00:14:13): I stopped doing sales. Max Sinclair (00:14:15): Like I stopped doing any sales at a million in revenue because I wanted to focus Max Sinclair (00:14:19): completely on like a Max Sinclair (00:14:21): delivery and customer success uh so i’m now as a founder ceo like basically you Max Sinclair (00:14:26): know managing that side of the business like we have three sales people who are Max Sinclair (00:14:30): doing all the demos and they’re pretty much booked all the time and like we are Max Sinclair (00:14:34): about to hire like a go-to-market person but really we haven’t needed like a Max Sinclair (00:14:39): go-to-market person like these are three a’s just like taking sales demos and and Max Sinclair (00:14:43): and like you know signing owning that end-to-end sales process but we’ve not Max Sinclair (00:14:47): We’ve not really explored any, you know, email marketing or LinkedIn. Max Sinclair (00:14:52): Like we haven’t done any of that kind of stuff. Max Sinclair (00:14:53): It’s all been organic coming from like the content we create. Max Sinclair (00:14:57): We have a podcast, like we post on LinkedIn a lot. Max Sinclair (00:15:00): And also I speak at lots of events and like speak at Shop Talk, Max Sinclair (00:15:04): like all the big industry events. Max Sinclair (00:15:05): Like, you know, I’ve been speaking at this about this stuff for three years. Max Sinclair (00:15:08): So we speak at events and we get lots of people booking demos after that as well.
Brian Bell (00:15:12): Yeah. Brian Bell (00:15:12): So the content, the content strategy is working. Brian Bell (00:15:14): So the advice to founders out there is a, Brian Bell (00:15:16): if, Brian Bell (00:15:17): if you’re putting your message out there and talking about it and people are Brian Bell (00:15:19): reaching out and saying, Brian Bell (00:15:20): Hey, Brian Bell (00:15:20): I want to, Brian Bell (00:15:20): I want to learn more. Brian Bell (00:15:22): Like you might need to pivot or something.
Max Sinclair (00:15:24): It doesn’t come naturally to me. Max Sinclair (00:15:25): I think it’s quite cringy. Max Sinclair (00:15:26): Like the whole, like, like, you know, shopping for likes on LinkedIn. Max Sinclair (00:15:30): But like it’s really working as an engine to drive the business. Max Sinclair (00:15:33): So you have to get over that like natural cringing. Max Sinclair (00:15:36): I kind of feel like my parents on Facebook, Max Sinclair (00:15:38): like I see my mom like posting stuff on Facebook and I’m just like, Max Sinclair (00:15:41): oh, Max Sinclair (00:15:41): that’s so cringe, Max Sinclair (00:15:42): like posting these holiday photos or cat photos or whatever. Max Sinclair (00:15:45): But that’s kind of like me to all matter. Max Sinclair (00:15:47): So it’s a bit cringe, Max Sinclair (00:15:47): but at the same time, Max Sinclair (00:15:48): I am very passionate, Max Sinclair (00:15:50): as you can tell, Max Sinclair (00:15:50): about AI optimization. Max Sinclair (00:15:52): I find lots of stuff interesting. Max Sinclair (00:15:54): I read the Walmart and ChatGPT integration that launched last week, Max Sinclair (00:15:59): and I’m like, Max Sinclair (00:15:59): we’re digging in with the Max Sinclair (00:16:01): My co-founder is a PhD. Max Sinclair (00:16:02): We’ve got three machine learning engineers on the team. Max Sinclair (00:16:05): So we’re like digging into all the stuff and like, you know, like I’ll put a post about it. Max Sinclair (00:16:08): I will write a blog about it. Max Sinclair (00:16:10): And I do enjoy that. Max Sinclair (00:16:11): I’m interested in that. Max Sinclair (00:16:12): And it just generates a lot of inbound, you know, demand. Max Sinclair (00:16:14): People want to see the product and find out more.
Brian Bell (00:16:16): Yeah. Brian Bell (00:16:17): So how does it work, you know, for folks out there listening that might be customers? Brian Bell (00:16:21): Maybe describe, you know, what’s the onboarding look like? Brian Bell (00:16:24): What kind of value is it delivering? Brian Bell (00:16:27): Like, how does it work under the hood? Brian Bell (00:16:28): Things like that.
Max Sinclair (00:16:29): Sure. Max Sinclair (00:16:29): So we’ve got two patents in the business. Max Sinclair (00:16:31): And I think, Max Sinclair (00:16:32): you know, Max Sinclair (00:16:32): I think different, Max Sinclair (00:16:33): a lot of, Max Sinclair (00:16:34): you know, Max Sinclair (00:16:34): newer competitors are using what is our patents of technology. Max Sinclair (00:16:37): And maybe one day we’ll do some moves on this. Max Sinclair (00:16:39): But basically what we do is we ping, Max Sinclair (00:16:41): we send like hundreds of thousands of prompts to the front end to the AI engines Max Sinclair (00:16:45): like Chachi Patin. Max Sinclair (00:16:46): We’re collecting the responses. Max Sinclair (00:16:48): We’re looking at how they’re scraping the internet in terms of their web traffic. Max Sinclair (00:16:52): And we’re looking at the responses we get back. Max Sinclair (00:16:54): And we built a predictive model that simulates how people are actually having those Max Sinclair (00:16:58): conversations with ChatGPT. Max Sinclair (00:17:00): So broadly, Max Sinclair (00:17:01): it’s parallel to how SEMrush is giving you keyword data in ChatGPT by extraction Max Sinclair (00:17:07): and simulation. Max Sinclair (00:17:08): It’s a similar type thing that we’re doing. Max Sinclair (00:17:10): Sorry, they do that with Google. Max Sinclair (00:17:11): We’re doing that, you know, not for keywords, but for conversations. Max Sinclair (00:17:14): It’s a similar type thing. Max Sinclair (00:17:15): So we built that technology. Max Sinclair (00:17:17): And then basically, Max Sinclair (00:17:18): once we can simulate how people are, Max Sinclair (00:17:20): you know, Max Sinclair (00:17:20): talking to chat GPT, Max Sinclair (00:17:22): we help our customers to generate content that is answering those conversation Max Sinclair (00:17:26): topics. Max Sinclair (00:17:26): So that’s product listings, blogs, recipes. Max Sinclair (00:17:29): different types of content that we do. Max Sinclair (00:17:31): We integrate with our customers. Max Sinclair (00:17:33): So we integrate into their PIMs or DAMs or websites or Amazon or Walmart or whatever it is. Max Sinclair (00:17:38): We can like do this at scale at the content generation scale. Max Sinclair (00:17:41): And yeah, Max Sinclair (00:17:41): basically we, Max Sinclair (00:17:42): you know, Max Sinclair (00:17:42): we’re monitoring that conversation in AI search and we’re generating optimized Max Sinclair (00:17:46): content that answers those questions and we’re driving revenue for the customers.
Brian Bell (00:17:50): That’s amazing. Brian Bell (00:17:50): And so as a customer, Brian Bell (00:17:52): you know, Brian Bell (00:17:52): selling pots and pans or whatever, Brian Bell (00:17:54): now I can understand how people are interacting with my brand, Brian Bell (00:17:58): with my products.
Max Sinclair (00:17:59): Yes.
Brian Bell (00:17:59): At scale in all these different engines and then optimize basically the content on Brian Bell (00:18:04): my pages, Brian Bell (00:18:05): product listings that can then optimize that experience in these answer engines.
Max Sinclair (00:18:09): Yes, exactly.
Brian Bell (00:18:10): So looking out like in the near term, in the next year or two, what are you guys excited about?
Max Sinclair (00:18:14): We’ve 10X in revenue in the last 10 months, and I want to continue that trajectory. Max Sinclair (00:18:18): So we’re on a massive hiring spree. Max Sinclair (00:18:21): Maybe strange for businesses. Max Sinclair (00:18:23): We’re actually like startup businesses. Max Sinclair (00:18:24): We’re profitable in Q2. Max Sinclair (00:18:25): So we’ve raised... Max Sinclair (00:18:30): You know, a bunch of money, but also like we’re generally like we’re generating good revenue. Max Sinclair (00:18:33): So we like my focus now is building the right team. Max Sinclair (00:18:36): And like, I don’t know if you have any advice on hiring. Max Sinclair (00:18:38): It’s probably something that I found the hardest. Max Sinclair (00:18:41): I’ve tried to take my luck. Max Sinclair (00:18:42): I did over 100 interviews at Amazon. Max Sinclair (00:18:44): So like, Max Sinclair (00:18:44): you know, Max Sinclair (00:18:45): like I was constantly interviewing in Amazon, Max Sinclair (00:18:48): but I find interviewing and just attracting good people to apply. Max Sinclair (00:18:53): to azuma which is a company that you know you probably heard of if you are you know Max Sinclair (00:18:59): in the search and e-commerce space you almost have to kind of be i think you almost
Brian Bell (00:19:03): have to approach it like a spear fisherman instead of like a net fisherman i think Brian Bell (00:19:06): you have to actually find the right person and go after them with a recruiter and Brian Bell (00:19:10): be like this is this is all the characteristics of the kind of person we want in Brian Bell (00:19:13): this role and then like who out there looks like this and let’s just go grab them Brian Bell (00:19:17): rather than waiting for them to come to you
Max Sinclair (00:19:19): I mean, definitely, I think it’s true. Max Sinclair (00:19:20): Like we, Max Sinclair (00:19:21): I find recruiters, Max Sinclair (00:19:23): I haven’t had success working with recruiters yet and I’ve tried a few. Max Sinclair (00:19:26): I don’t know, like if you have any.
Brian Bell (00:19:27): We’ve had some on the podcast. Brian Bell (00:19:29): Yeah, we have some on the partner list that you could try. Brian Bell (00:19:31): Yeah, I guess we haven’t talked about that, but I can make some referrals offline for you. Brian Bell (00:19:36): It’s, it is a challenge and it’s a challenge for me too, right? Brian Bell (00:19:39): You know, hiring the right people. Brian Bell (00:19:40): You know, I think the old phrase is like a higher, slow, fire, fast. Brian Bell (00:19:44): And I think that’s a little more challenging in the UK than it is in the States, right? Brian Bell (00:19:48): I think it’s... Because here we have no, like, it’s just no fault, you know, at will. Brian Bell (00:19:52): You can just fire anybody for anything. Brian Bell (00:19:54): It doesn’t matter. Brian Bell (00:19:55): Just like, I don’t like the way your hair looks. Brian Bell (00:19:57): You’re fired, you know?
Max Sinclair (00:19:58): Yeah, it’s definitely harder. Max Sinclair (00:20:00): And I think Europe has a big problem in that point. Max Sinclair (00:20:03): You can’t just fire people. Max Sinclair (00:20:05): Which means you’re a lot more cautious in hiring. Max Sinclair (00:20:08): So like, obviously, right? Max Sinclair (00:20:10): So it means that like companies are suffering compared to in the States where they Max Sinclair (00:20:14): will just hire and fire at will. Max Sinclair (00:20:16): And yeah, Max Sinclair (00:20:16): so there’s a big problem, Max Sinclair (00:20:17): just like probably one of the reasons why we grow so much, Max Sinclair (00:20:20): like the European Union has grown so much slower than the US if you look at the Max Sinclair (00:20:23): last year. Max Sinclair (00:20:25): 20 years, right, from being similarly sized economies to like a third of the size of the U.S. Max Sinclair (00:20:31): or half, Max Sinclair (00:20:31): whatever it is, Max Sinclair (00:20:32): like it’s kind of staggering how slow the European Union has grown and like, Max Sinclair (00:20:37): you know, Max Sinclair (00:20:38): like general kind of life, Max Sinclair (00:20:41): like any measure of like life happiness or whatever, Max Sinclair (00:20:45): like is just not growing as fast as the U.S. Max Sinclair (00:20:48): But yeah, so that’s definitely.
Brian Bell (00:20:50): It turns out regulation slows innovation, you know. Brian Bell (00:20:54): And I disagree with Trump on a lot of things, Brian Bell (00:20:56): but one thing to him, Brian Bell (00:20:57): what his administration is doing is removing layers and layers of complexity and Brian Bell (00:21:01): regulation, Brian Bell (00:21:02): just letting business do its thing, Brian Bell (00:21:04): which is why we have all this affluence in the first place. Brian Bell (00:21:06): It’s capitalism and businesses and scientists driving GDP gains. Brian Bell (00:21:11): You know, one thing that we were wrestling with here in the U.S. Brian Bell (00:21:13): recently was all the AI regulation at the state level. Brian Bell (00:21:16): You know, Brian Bell (00:21:16): so they tried to put that kibosh on that at the federal level and say, Brian Bell (00:21:20): no, Brian Bell (00:21:20): you know, Brian Bell (00:21:20): at least a hiatus on it. Brian Bell (00:21:22): Like, hey, give it a few years. Brian Bell (00:21:24): Let us figure out federally how to do this. Brian Bell (00:21:26): But back to the hiring question, Brian Bell (00:21:27): maybe a hack to consider for you is hiring remote contractors, Brian Bell (00:21:31): contract to hire basically in other countries. Brian Bell (00:21:34): How do you think about that? Brian Bell (00:21:35): Like, how do you think about remote work versus?
Max Sinclair (00:21:36): I didn’t love it, to be honest. Max Sinclair (00:21:38): I think that we need to be in person. Max Sinclair (00:21:41): We have two offices. Max Sinclair (00:21:42): We have an office in Canada and an office in the UK. Max Sinclair (00:21:45): All of our technical team is based in Canada, Max Sinclair (00:21:47): my co-founder, Max Sinclair (00:21:48): and all of our commercial team is based in the UK. Max Sinclair (00:21:50): So sales, customer success, everything is in the UK with me. Max Sinclair (00:21:53): I think that works really well for us. Max Sinclair (00:21:55): I secretly quite like that there’s a notion between the sales and customer success Max Sinclair (00:22:00): people, Max Sinclair (00:22:00): the tech people, Max Sinclair (00:22:01): because it kind of means that they can focus and build and Max Sinclair (00:22:05): And like we can talk to customers and sell. Max Sinclair (00:22:07): And obviously we have calls every day. Max Sinclair (00:22:08): But I don’t love the idea of people either not being one of those two hubs.
Brian Bell (00:22:13): Yeah. Brian Bell (00:22:13): So anybody you hire, you definitely want them in one of those two offices.
Max Sinclair (00:22:16): Yes.
Brian Bell (00:22:17): You know, most days per week, it sounds like. Brian Bell (00:22:19): Yeah, that makes sense. Brian Bell (00:22:20): What about long term over the next five to 10 years? Brian Bell (00:22:23): What are you excited about?
Max Sinclair (00:22:24): What am I excited about? Max Sinclair (00:22:25): I’m excited about really kind of challenging some really large companies with some Max Sinclair (00:22:31): really senior people taking fat paychecks and doing very little. Max Sinclair (00:22:36): And what I’m talking about are the media agencies, WPPs, Publicis, Digitas, these guys. Max Sinclair (00:22:44): you know, Max Sinclair (00:22:44): these big, Max Sinclair (00:22:44): big billion dollar plus businesses, Max Sinclair (00:22:47): which like owning, Max Sinclair (00:22:49): you know, Max Sinclair (00:22:49): hundreds of mini agencies and have like tons of senior strategic leaders who are Max Sinclair (00:22:55): not doing anything. Max Sinclair (00:22:56): And this is who we compete with really. Max Sinclair (00:22:57): Like when we’re working with our customers, Max Sinclair (00:23:00): You know, Max Sinclair (00:23:00): who’s doing their old SEO, Max Sinclair (00:23:02): who’s doing the old content for the likes of Mars and Colgate is these guys, Max Sinclair (00:23:06): right? Max Sinclair (00:23:06): And we, Max Sinclair (00:23:07): I think we are learning to partner with them in some cases, Max Sinclair (00:23:10): but also, Max Sinclair (00:23:11): and like, Max Sinclair (00:23:11): you know, Max Sinclair (00:23:12): I hope we can grow some partnerships with some, Max Sinclair (00:23:14): but also like, Max Sinclair (00:23:15): you know, Max Sinclair (00:23:15): where I didn’t see us as competing with other software in it really like, Max Sinclair (00:23:19): you know, Max Sinclair (00:23:19): like, Max Sinclair (00:23:20): yes, Max Sinclair (00:23:20): there’s other software providers, Max Sinclair (00:23:22): startups who, Max Sinclair (00:23:23): who kind of say they do what we do. Max Sinclair (00:23:24): But really, Max Sinclair (00:23:25): like if you when we with the customers, Max Sinclair (00:23:26): we’re competing against kind of bloated companies. Max Sinclair (00:23:29): So like we’re looking, Max Sinclair (00:23:30): we’re looking forward to making some friends and making some foes and and kind of Max Sinclair (00:23:34): like taking a large market share of like, Max Sinclair (00:23:37): you know, Max Sinclair (00:23:38): this service industry, Max Sinclair (00:23:39): which I think will all be AI in 50 years time, Max Sinclair (00:23:42): like a lot of this stuff will be AI agents and we’re we’re, Max Sinclair (00:23:45): you know, Max Sinclair (00:23:46): excited to lead that charge.
Brian Bell (00:23:47): How do you think about funding going forward? Brian Bell (00:23:49): Because you’re growing really fast. Brian Bell (00:23:51): How do you think about going out for an A, Brian Bell (00:23:54): raising 5 or 10 million and really going after the market versus self-funding at Brian Bell (00:23:57): this point?
Max Sinclair (00:23:58): I definitely want to raise a big series A. It’s an ambition of mine. Max Sinclair (00:24:01): And the reason it’s an ambition of mine is I think part of what I just said there, Max Sinclair (00:24:05): it announces us to our customers that, Max Sinclair (00:24:07): hey, Max Sinclair (00:24:08): we’re going to be the partner for you. Max Sinclair (00:24:09): We’re going to be here for the next 20 years. Max Sinclair (00:24:11): We’ve got more cash and you could... Max Sinclair (00:24:14): possibly like think makes sense and you know that you know that we’re we’re a Max Sinclair (00:24:18): partner and then secondly it shows to the market the industry that like some vcs Max Sinclair (00:24:23): have done due diligence on the software on the product and they and they think it’s Max Sinclair (00:24:26): got product market fit and it drives value and they’ve vindicated that with their Max Sinclair (00:24:30): with their funds and then thirdly i think it enables us to build those partners Max Sinclair (00:24:35): with these bigger kind of existing wpps and i’m thinking in a way which is Max Sinclair (00:24:39): we’re going to partner with them on a more equal footing because they know like Max Sinclair (00:24:42): we’ve got way more cash than like they could spin up a competitor internally but Max Sinclair (00:24:47): like it’s going to be nothing compared to you know our resources and our technology Max Sinclair (00:24:51): we built for three years and the direction we’re going to so for those reasons you Max Sinclair (00:24:55): know it’s something that i’m i’m motivated to do even though like financially i Max Sinclair (00:24:59): don’t need to you know like could be bootstrap but like we have very big ambitions Max Sinclair (00:25:03): for the company so uh Max Sinclair (00:25:04): Yeah, Max Sinclair (00:25:05): I’ll be on a trade mission actually in LA in February, Max Sinclair (00:25:08): and then I’ll maybe be back in San Francisco in Ireland, Max Sinclair (00:25:12): and I think SF is still the best place to do this, Max Sinclair (00:25:15): right? Max Sinclair (00:25:16): So I’ll be back there in the new year, and yeah, let’s see.
Brian Bell (00:25:20): Nice. Brian Bell (00:25:21): Awesome. Brian Bell (00:25:22): Well, let’s kind of wrap up with a rapid fire. Brian Bell (00:25:24): So if you woke up today and you didn’t have to worry about funding, Brian Bell (00:25:26): what bold product move would you make?
Max Sinclair (00:25:28): Well, we are like all the bold product moves that we’re making, we’re doing now. Max Sinclair (00:25:32): So it’s kind of like it’s kind of like asking me, what’s my roadmap? Max Sinclair (00:25:35): Because I think we’ve got tons of books. Max Sinclair (00:25:37): I think that chat GPT is obviously going to become one of the biggest challenges. Max Sinclair (00:25:41): This is not a rapid fire answer, by the way. Max Sinclair (00:25:43): So apologies.
Brian Bell (00:25:43): That’s fine. Brian Bell (00:25:44): Rapid-ish.
Max Sinclair (00:25:45): I’ll do it rapid. Max Sinclair (00:25:46): The rapid answer is ChatGPT Commerce is going to be big and we’re working on that. Max Sinclair (00:25:51): And I think that’s going to be really exciting in the future.
Brian Bell (00:25:53): What is that? Brian Bell (00:25:54): GPD Comments?
Max Sinclair (00:25:55): Commerce. Max Sinclair (00:25:56): So like Shopify integration, Walmart integration, Etsy integration. Max Sinclair (00:26:00): This is going to be massive in two, three years. Max Sinclair (00:26:02): And yeah, we’re like, we’re very excited about what we’re doing.
Brian Bell (00:26:04): They want to become the new Google, which is the portal to all the world’s information, right? Brian Bell (00:26:08): That’s kind of Sam Altman’s vision, right? Brian Bell (00:26:10): Like you go there and it’s like your assistant that helps you do everything. Brian Bell (00:26:13): And shopping is a big part of commerce. Brian Bell (00:26:15): You know, it’s a big part of our GDP. Brian Bell (00:26:17): So that makes sense. Brian Bell (00:26:18): Speaking of which, Brian Bell (00:26:19): what’s a misbelief founders and people have about AI and e-commerce that you’d like Brian Bell (00:26:23): to correct?
Max Sinclair (00:26:24): AI and e-commerce. Max Sinclair (00:26:25): I still am of the belief, two things. Max Sinclair (00:26:28): I don’t think that you can replace human communication with AI. Max Sinclair (00:26:31): So I don’t believe in AI SDRs. Max Sinclair (00:26:34): You know, like sometimes I get a cold call and it’s an AI and it’s like, I am not. Max Sinclair (00:26:38): talking to, you know, doing a cold call with an AI. Max Sinclair (00:26:41): I don’t think you can AI like customer success. Max Sinclair (00:26:44): I think that the customers want to talk to a human, Max Sinclair (00:26:47): especially once they paid a lot of money for the product, Max Sinclair (00:26:49): they want someone to hold their hand and walk them through it. Max Sinclair (00:26:51): So I don’t, I think there’s some stuff which will not be AI automated. Max Sinclair (00:26:55): So yeah, I think I like that would be my, yeah, that would be my hot take.
Brian Bell (00:26:59): Yeah. Brian Bell (00:26:59): What’s the single toughest negotiation you’ve had to lead so far as a founder?
Max Sinclair (00:27:04): I think our team has built up of a lot of ex-founders. Max Sinclair (00:27:08): So I have founders, Max Sinclair (00:27:09): you know, Max Sinclair (00:27:10): ex-VC back founders who was actually one of my flatmates when I was on our first Max Sinclair (00:27:14): accelerator. Max Sinclair (00:27:15): We’ve got other people who have exited, Max Sinclair (00:27:17):you know, Max Sinclair (00:27:18): had exits and are friends of mine who’ve joined the company. Max Sinclair (00:27:21): You know, two people were hired from accelerators, one a friend in the software space. Max Sinclair (00:27:25): And I mean, Max Sinclair (00:27:25): the hardest negotiation is convincing really smart people who could be founding Max Sinclair (00:27:29): their own companies and will do it again in the future to come and be part of your Max Sinclair (00:27:34): mission for the next three to five years. Max Sinclair (00:27:37): That’s really tough. Max Sinclair (00:27:38): And that’s the hardest one that I’ve done.
Brian Bell (00:27:39): Yeah, that is hard. Brian Bell (00:27:40): How do you decide when to build versus integrate a partner or partner for a new capability? Brian Bell (00:27:45): Build by partner.
Max Sinclair (00:27:46): We have built everything ourselves. Max Sinclair (00:27:48): We don’t rely on any partners. Max Sinclair (00:27:49): We want to completely control the customer implementation experience. Max Sinclair (00:27:54): I mean, obviously we’re using the open source LLMs and whatnot. Max Sinclair (00:27:58): So like, Max Sinclair (00:27:58): we’re using AWS, Max Sinclair (00:28:00):we’re using ChatGPT, Max Sinclair (00:28:01): but we would not, Max Sinclair (00:28:03): I think we’re not using any, Max Sinclair (00:28:05): and HubSpot, Max Sinclair (00:28:06): so I guess it’s not really true, Max Sinclair (00:28:07): but like, Max Sinclair (00:28:08): Certainly in the product we want.
Brian Bell (00:28:09): At some point, you’re not going to build your own CRM. Brian Bell (00:28:11): I mean, that’s undifferentiated work, you know?
Max Sinclair (00:28:14): Yeah, Max Sinclair (00:28:15): but broadly...
Brian Bell (00:28:15): Unless there was a really good business reason, Brian Bell (00:28:17): like, Brian Bell (00:28:17): oh, Brian Bell (00:28:17): I’m going to build this really special CRM that, Brian Bell (00:28:20): you know, Brian Bell (00:28:21): is a competitive advantage for us.
Max Sinclair (00:28:22): But I’d say maybe anything to do with the customer... Max Sinclair (00:28:26): an implementation of like how our product adds value to our customers. Max Sinclair (00:28:30): We will build that ourselves. Max Sinclair (00:28:32): We will not use any third party unless it’s kind of something we cannot replicate. Max Sinclair (00:28:36): Building a new LLM, Max Sinclair (00:28:37): you know, Max Sinclair (00:28:38): and the trillion dollar investments have gone into open AI, Max Sinclair (00:28:41): like we’re not going to be able to replicate that.
Brian Bell (00:28:43): What’s an AI trend that’s kind of under the radar that deserves more attention right now?
Max Sinclair (00:28:47): Well, Max Sinclair (00:28:48): one that I’ve started using and it kind of relates to our earlier conversation Max Sinclair (00:28:51): about hiring is AI recruiters. Max Sinclair (00:28:53): We kind of, it’s a very cool company called Jack and Jill. Max Sinclair (00:28:57): And you kind of, Max Sinclair (00:28:58): as a candidate, Max Sinclair (00:28:59):you interact with voice and you explain what you want in a role. Max Sinclair (00:29:03): And also as a hirer, Max Sinclair (00:29:04): as a company and employer, Max Sinclair (00:29:05): you interact with voice as well and you explain what candidates you want and they Max Sinclair (00:29:08): match with them. Max Sinclair (00:29:09): So I think Max Sinclair (00:29:10): Voice AI, when you elect to use it, is a really interesting thing. Max Sinclair (00:29:13): Like I said before, I don’t think you can go cold to people with AI. Max Sinclair (00:29:16): I think they’ll hate it. Max Sinclair (00:29:18): You don’t want to get a cold AI email. Max Sinclair (00:29:20): You don’t want to get a cold AI call. Max Sinclair (00:29:22): But I think certainly there’s many, many use cases where if you’re Max Sinclair (00:29:27): You’re opting to use AI because you want the scale of AI. Max Sinclair (00:29:31): You want it to be sourcing thousands, hundreds of thousands of candidates and like all of that. Max Sinclair (00:29:36): There’s definitely places AI is advantageous over humans. Max Sinclair (00:29:40): And yeah, in those cases, I think it’s really interesting.
Brian Bell (00:29:41): Yeah. Brian Bell (00:29:42): How do you maintain content quality at scale while avoiding hallucinations or Brian Bell (00:29:46): errors in the platform?
Max Sinclair (00:29:47): Well, we’ve got a pattern that focuses on this. Max Sinclair (00:29:50): So, you know, you can ask my co-founder as a PhD in postdoc. Max Sinclair (00:29:53): We’ve worked very hard on this. Max Sinclair (00:29:54): I think it was a lot harder problem maybe when we started out than it is now. Max Sinclair (00:29:57): I think the models do a much better job at stopping hallucinations themselves. Max Sinclair (00:30:02): But certainly when we were selling this, Max Sinclair (00:30:03): you know, Max Sinclair (00:30:04): two years ago, Max Sinclair (00:30:04): we were very much focused on the product and controlling for hallucinations.
Brian Bell (00:30:08): Looking back at your Amazon days, Brian Bell (00:30:10): what’s a leadership principle or lesson that you still apply every day?
Max Sinclair (00:30:13): I love it. Max Sinclair (00:30:14): I love it. Max Sinclair (00:30:15): Well, there’s two which we’ve copied into our company. Max Sinclair (00:30:18): The first is insist on the highest standards, Max Sinclair (00:30:20): which was always my favorite at Amazon when I was managing people. Max Sinclair (00:30:24): I love that ruthless focus on just like higher and higher standards and holding Max Sinclair (00:30:29): people yourself and team members to them. Max Sinclair (00:30:31): We’ve directly, Max Sinclair (00:30:32):you know, Max Sinclair (00:30:32): we’ve basically taken that verbatim as one of our four principles in our company Max Sinclair (00:30:37): from Amazon. Max Sinclair (00:30:37): And the second one we haven’t taken verbatim, Max Sinclair (00:30:39): but we’ve been inspired by is, Max Sinclair (00:30:41): of course, Max Sinclair (00:30:41): customer obsession, Max Sinclair (00:30:42): the kind of, Max Sinclair (00:30:43): you know, Max Sinclair (00:30:43): the OG principle. Max Sinclair (00:30:45): And we have adapted it in our own unique way. Max Sinclair (00:30:49): But yeah, that’s a key one as well.
Brian Bell (00:30:51): Yeah, I love that. Brian Bell (00:30:51): I haven’t sat down and wrote out the principles for Team Ignite yet. Brian Bell (00:30:54): I should do that at some point. Brian Bell (00:30:55): Probably copy a lot from Amazon.
Max Sinclair (00:30:57): Yeah, I had six and now have four because actually I found that we have a team of 20. Max Sinclair (00:31:01): I think on reflection, Max Sinclair (00:31:03): one of the things Amazon did brilliantly is that you talk to any employee and they Max Sinclair (00:31:06): will tell you the 14 leadership principles and they will try and optimize their Max Sinclair (00:31:10): work for it. Max Sinclair (00:31:11): I mean, it’s insane how ingrained that culture was. Max Sinclair (00:31:15): And it’s really, really hard. Max Sinclair (00:31:17): And that’s why I decided that we’re going to, Max Sinclair (00:31:19):you know, Max Sinclair (00:31:19): I narrowed it down to four because I want people to be able to remember four. Max Sinclair (00:31:23): And I, Max Sinclair (00:31:23):you know, Max Sinclair (00:31:24): try and talk about whenever I talk to the team, Max Sinclair (00:31:26): you know, Max Sinclair (00:31:27): I talk about in terms of one of those four. Max Sinclair (00:31:29): So that’s what I hope I can learn from Emerson.
Brian Bell (00:31:32): Well, this was an awesome conversation. Brian Bell (00:31:34): Thanks for coming on and catching up with me.
Max Sinclair (00:31:36): Thanks, Brian. Max Sinclair (00:31:36): Appreciate you.
