Brian Bell00:00:51 Hey, everyone. Brian Bell Welcome back to the Ignite podcast. Brian Bell Today, we’re thrilled to have Max Sinclair on the mic. Brian Bell He’s the founder and CEO of Azoma, a portfolio company and fair disclosure. Brian Bell He’s also ex-Amazon product lead who helped launch Amazon Business in the UK, Brian Bell Amazon Grocery, Brian Bell and amongst other things. Brian Bell He’s steeped in e-commerce, Brian Bell the content space at least, Brian Bell and now leads one of the earliest AI SaaS plays to optimize for AI-powered search. Brian Bell Thanks for coming on, Max.
Max Sinclair00:01:14 Pleasure to be here. Max Sinclair Thanks for having me, Brian.
Brian Bell00:01:16 I was telling you before we started recording, Brian Bell my favorite kind of episode to record is with my founders. Brian Bell So I’d love to hear about your background for the audience and kind of get your origin story.
Max Sinclair00:01:25 Yeah, sure. Max Sinclair So I went straight to Amazon out of university. Max Sinclair I worked at the company six years. Max Sinclair I know you did as well. Max Sinclair I think that’s kind of Max Sinclair one of the things we bonded over.
Brian Bell00:01:34 Right.
Max Sinclair00:01:35 Yeah.
Brian Bell00:01:36 OP1, OP2, six pagers.
Max Sinclair00:01:39 Yeah. Max Sinclair All of that good stuff. Max Sinclair And I, I, yeah, I guess my, my career started in account management. Max Sinclair I was, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair as you said, Max Sinclair in Amazon business, Max Sinclair I then went, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair I mean, Max Sinclair crucially forwarding now worked in search and in IDQ as they called it in Amazon, Max Sinclair uh, Max Sinclair IT and data quality. Max Sinclair I was in charge of the browsing customer experience for the launch of Amazon in Singapore. Max Sinclair And then, yeah, came back and headed up a grocery in the EU. Max Sinclair And yeah, Max Sinclair I guess the origin story of the business is I went on something called Entrepreneur Max Sinclair First, Max Sinclair which is a little bit like cross of The Apprentice and Love Island. Max Sinclair I don’t know if US listeners will get. Max Sinclair No, I think we know about it. Max Sinclair They know about it. Max Sinclair Okay.
Brian Bell00:02:16 Yeah, yeah.
Max Sinclair00:02:17 So you kind of, Max Sinclair you’re on this, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair quite my job to go on it and you’re on this full-time program for four months. Max Sinclair I tried to meet a co-founder and I guess the timing was very fortunate because I Max Sinclair left Amazon to do this in September 2022. Max Sinclair Those remember November 2022 because that’s when ChatGPT launched. Max Sinclair So me and my co-founder, Max Sinclair were experimenting with pre-Chat GPT, you know, GPT-3 in the API. Max Sinclair We were looking at the early diffusion models that were coming out of stability at the time. Max Sinclair But very quickly after ChatGPT launched in November of that year, Max Sinclair we had the thesis that this was going to be the future of search. Max Sinclair And we initially thought on marketplaces. Max Sinclair So we initially thought this was going to be the future of how Amazon and Walmart Max Sinclair and these guys would, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair display their products to their customers. Max Sinclair because it was so obvious that an LLM was such a better experience than what I had Max Sinclair worked on at Amazon. Max Sinclair And in the old days of Amazon, Max Sinclair as you’d know, Max Sinclair you type in kind of brown t-shirts and you’d get all sorts of different colors Max Sinclair because all the sellers would be keyword stuffing and the AIs weren’t smart enough Max Sinclair to value the image as part of how they should rank the product. Max Sinclair They didn’t understand the context of the user’s questions or keywords often, Max Sinclair and they would show irrelevant stuff. Max Sinclair They wouldn’t, you know, use as much data as they Max Sinclair of the customer search behaviors they will do now. Max Sinclair So we thought this was, you know, going to be the future and started building Azoma then really. Max Sinclair And it’s now been three years. Max Sinclair We’re over seven figures in revenue. Max Sinclair We have Colgate. Max Sinclair That’s huge. Max Sinclair Congrats. Max Sinclair Thank you. Max Sinclair And Colgate, Mars, Arla, HP.
Brian Bell00:03:46 Especially for early investors. Brian Bell This is really big for us.
Max Sinclair00:03:49 Exactly. Max Sinclair Well, we’ve been growing very, very rapidly.
Brian Bell00:03:53 Self-congratulatory tap on the back for myself here.
Max Sinclair00:03:57 10x this year so i think it is very interesting that’s crazy first two years of the Max Sinclair business we were showing people you know amazon sellers science papers and going Max Sinclair hey look there’s an llm in the algorithm you guys need to do stuff differently and Max Sinclair that was literally the sales pitch i would do to people like share my screen on on Max Sinclair amazon science be like look this is what’s happening you guys need to optimize and Max Sinclair for two years it was very hard to get people to we had you know early adopters you Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair and I’m very grateful to them and, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair built the product in partnership with them. Max Sinclair But it took a certain type of personality as a seller to really care about their Max Sinclair science papers and want to try, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair wacky stuff to optimize LLMs. Max Sinclair Now it’s obvious and everyone wants to do it. Max Sinclair And the AEO and GEO are like, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair new terms that we would never be using, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair when we started doing this.
Brian Bell00:04:44 Maybe you can break those terms down. Brian Bell So the last... Brian Bell you know, generation and was SEO, right? Brian Bell And it started just like you described it, just keyword stuffing. Brian Bell You’d put like white text on white backgrounds and stuff like that. Brian Bell And yeah. Brian Bell And then Google, you know, privy up to that. Brian Bell And so they would release a new model every month or quarter, Brian Bell and then you’d have to go redo all your SEO. Brian Bell But now you, you just threw out a new term, which is AEO, like AI.
Max Sinclair00:05:10 Yeah. Max Sinclair So the term, Max Sinclair the one I like the best is onset engine optimization or AEO, Max Sinclair because I think it best encapsulates what we are trying to do, Max Sinclair which is
Brian Bell00:05:20 Answer engine optimization.
Max Sinclair00:05:21 Exactly. Max Sinclair You know, Max Sinclair when you ask an answer engine like ChatGPT or Perplexity or Amazon Rufus or Walmart Max Sinclair Sparky a question, Max Sinclair customers are going to expect an answer. Max Sinclair They’re going to expect the answer to that question. Max Sinclair And like sometimes that answer will be a, you know, product recommendation. Max Sinclair And that’s what we’re helping our service recommendation. Max Sinclair And that’s what we’re helping our customers with is to be recommended by these AI engines.
Brian Bell00:05:44 Yeah, I love that. Brian Bell So maybe reflecting on, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell the last three years, Brian Bell I’m sure it’s flown by really fast, Brian Bell but maybe for founders listening or about to, Brian Bell they’re sitting at their Amazon desk and their, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell fifth review of their six pager with their skip level. Brian Bell Tell us about that, you know, taking the plunge. Brian Bell What do you wish you knew then that, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell now kind of looking back and what would you, Brian Bell how would you advise people, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell drudging it on in corporate life, Brian Bell thinking about making the plunge?
Max Sinclair00:06:14 well my first thing would be it was the best decision i ever made and i remember Max Sinclair calling up my my grandpa who’s no longer with us and kind of having this offer for Max Sinclair entrepreneur first and saying to him you know i kind of i was kind of in the market Max Sinclair for a new thing like i you know you kind of i think you reach your natural point in Max Sinclair in corporate jobs where you’ve been in the role for like two years or so and you Max Sinclair know either i’d been promoted and it’s kind of like you know Max Sinclair what’s next kind of kind of view um and i applied to a few things i applied to Max Sinclair google i applied to and then entrepreneur first because i had a friend who worked Max Sinclair there and i and i’ve always wanted to you know i had been doing like startup ideas Max Sinclair on the site and i kind of had the view that these would never work because i had a Max Sinclair pretty intense job it was like you know eight to six you know i was managing a team Max Sinclair of about 15 so like Max Sinclair all the challenges and and fun that comes with like managing people plus as you say Max Sinclair delivering projects for my skip managers and all that great fun stuff so i would Max Sinclair probably have like an hour or two you know every other evening and then maybe some Max Sinclair time on the weekend where i would like explore startup ideas but they never went Max Sinclair anywhere because i could never commit any real time to them and then you know so i Max Sinclair applied to entrepreneur first Max Sinclair with the view of if I’m going to do something, Max Sinclair if I want to do this, Max Sinclair which I wanted to do, Max Sinclair I should probably commit myself to it fully because it wasn’t working just kind of Max Sinclair like playing around with ideas for half an hour.
Brian Bell00:07:37 What is entrepreneur first for folks listening? Brian Bell Don’t know what that is.
Max Sinclair00:07:40 So that’s the speed dating thing I was talking about. Max Sinclair It’s speed dating for founders. Max Sinclair It’s an accelerator. Max Sinclair You go there as a solo founder and you meet a co-founder. Max Sinclair They have it in San Francisco, I believe. Max Sinclair They have it in London. Max Sinclair They have it in Toronto, which is where I went on it. Max Sinclair But they didn’t have it there anymore. Max Sinclair They closed that. Max Sinclair But they have it in a few places around the world. Max Sinclair New York, I think, as well.
Brian Bell00:07:59 So you go there and you just meet a bunch of co-founders. Brian Bell If you’re a CEO, a business person, you can meet a technical co-founder and vice versa.
Max Sinclair00:08:07 Exactly. Max Sinclair So they accept about 20 commercial people and about 30 technical people onto the Max Sinclair program, Max Sinclair which is amazing if you’re commercial because it’s something we quickly realized, Max Sinclair which is like actually technical talent is not the bottleneck. Max Sinclair The bottleneck is like a product market fit and something that has a good idea. Max Sinclair There’s, you know, at least when I did it, there was this kind of Max Sinclair balance of you as a commercial person you were more looking for a customer pain Max Sinclair from an industry that you knew and you’re looking for someone who like had a unique Max Sinclair technical skill that would solve that pain and like the kind of that melting pot of Max Sinclair your unique understanding of an industry and your co-founders unique technical Max Sinclair expertise hopefully could build a business right and that business would be special Max Sinclair that only you two could build because of those things so in our case Max Sinclair As I said, I had a deep e-commerce and search background. Max Sinclair My co-founder is a PhD in postdoc and AI, Max Sinclair had built a machine vision company, Max Sinclair really understood what was happening in the gen AI space. Max Sinclair So we were uniquely positioned to build this Azoma answer engine optimization company. Max Sinclair And, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair many, Max Sinclair many of the different founders, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair everyone had their own background commercially and technically. Max Sinclair And you’re kind of like going around trying to like see if there was, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair that could match. Max Sinclair And those two puzzle pieces could link in like a unique and interesting way.
Brian Bell00:09:27 And so so you guys start out and you’re building for a while. Brian Bell And then at some point there’s an inflection of growth. Brian Bell Tell us about that and kind of what unlocked that.
Max Sinclair00:09:37 So we started the company in 23. Max Sinclair We went on Techstars in 24. Max Sinclair So we’re out in the bay. Max Sinclair eBay Ventures were the LP of that. Max Sinclair So we were talking about optimizing e-commerce for LLMs back in early 24. Max Sinclair And still nobody thought this was a thing. Max Sinclair And I remember being in the eBay offices and we had a mentor from eBay and we went Max Sinclair to their offices a few times. Max Sinclair and trying to explain to these senior VPs at eBay of like, Max Sinclair hey, Max Sinclair LLM is going to be the next way that eBay search is going to work in a year or two. Max Sinclair And they’re like, no, they’re never going to cannibalize the ads business. Max Sinclair This is never going to happen. Max Sinclair This is a bad idea. Max Sinclair So we were still like, it was still a really contrarian belief in 24. Max Sinclair I think since the start of 25, Max Sinclair and just a mass like they’re just march the march of chat gpt adoption it kind of Max Sinclair became on and that forcing gemini and google to do ai overviews i’d say that was Max Sinclair kind of the start of 25 when this went from bringing like a frontarian Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair really edged thing that only really early adopters would be interested in, Max Sinclair in terms of customers to like, Max Sinclair everyone’s interested in it. Max Sinclair It’s really obvious that people are discovering stuff with chat GPT and Amazon Max Sinclair refus is, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair like Google itself has like changed, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair suddenly like everything’s getting in IO view from Gemini. Max Sinclair And that I say was 25%. Max Sinclair And, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair as we discussed, Max Sinclair like you’ve seen like a bunch more startups kind of enter the space, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair around that time that it became very obvious. Max Sinclair And that was the inflection point as well. Max Sinclair And yeah, we’ve 10xed revenue basically in the last 10 months. Max Sinclair So we, you know, we’ve been riding that inflection point as well.
Brian Bell00:11:16 yeah so do do you feel like you have product market fit and how do you know so i Brian Bell think i would define product market fit as giving repeatable value to customers and Brian Bell i would be very i’d be very cautious to say yes and the way that i would define it Brian Bell as yes is that we have had a number we’re an enterprise company and we’ve had three Brian Bell enterprise companies where we’ve had a pilot in the tens of thousands and we’ve Brian Bell signed annual deals in the hundreds of thousands
Max Sinclair00:11:40 So in three independent cases, Max Sinclair we’ve kind of proven the value of the service and we’ve 10x the contract value for Max Sinclair a year and extended it as well. Max Sinclair We’ve gone for more brands or, you know, larger scope, more marketplace, whatever. Max Sinclair So I think we have signals that we have product market fit. Max Sinclair based on the fact that like the customers want to buy more of our stuff and they’re Max Sinclair willing to pay like a lot more to expand it but i think it’s i would be it would be Max Sinclair careful i mean it’s it’s not you know i i think we are given we’re like seven Max Sinclair figures of revenue and and growing very quickly i think i think it’s fair to say
Brian Bell00:12:15 like we’re approaching product market fit i love that somebody uh said i don’t Brian Bell remember who but product market fit feels like the market’s grabbing you by both Brian Bell nostrils and pulling you out of the office i’m paraphrasing a little bit but
Max Sinclair00:12:27 Well, we definitely have that. Max Sinclair But to me, to me, there’s like sales market fit and product market fit. Max Sinclair Like we definitely have sales market fit. Max Sinclair Like we are basically completely inbound driven, has always been inbound driven. Max Sinclair We’ve never run any paid ads. Max Sinclair You know, Max Sinclair like we, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair if you see my LinkedIn, Max Sinclair I get like hundreds of people from like all sorts of customers. Max Sinclair commenting on the link on our linkedin and and like you know wanting to put demos Max Sinclair we we have really strong i mean we built a brand in this space because we’ve been Max Sinclair talking about this for so long that people you know like it’s now very fashionable Max Sinclair to talk about aio and generative a geo but we’ve actually been like reading these Max Sinclair science papers for three years and like we’ve got two patents we’ve been building Max Sinclair this we’ve got case studies Max Sinclair So I think we definitely have sales market fit where like the customers want to buy Max Sinclair our product. Max Sinclair Then the question is like, are you delivering repeatable value to the customers? Max Sinclair Which is like a second step and really hard. Max Sinclair And I think, you know, signals would say to me, yes. Max Sinclair And I would say like, you know, I mentioned a couple of the brand names we have. Max Sinclair Some of them are on the annual deals. Max Sinclair Some of them are on pilots. Max Sinclair If we convert some of these like six months pilots to annual deals and they’re Max Sinclair seven figure deals in the new year, Max Sinclair then I’d say, Max Sinclair yeah, Max Sinclair we have product market fit.
Brian Bell00:13:34 Yeah, love that. Brian Bell So that’s a really interesting thing that you said there, Brian Bell which is we haven’t done a lot of outbound.
Max Sinclair00:13:40 Right.
Brian Bell00:13:41 I mean, that’s when I think you know you have the right thing at the right time. Brian Bell Because a question I might ask you if you’re pitching me is like, Brian Bell hey, Brian Bell what’s your distribution wedge? Brian Bell And if you tell me like, hey, we’re growing... Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell some, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell high, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell mid double digit 40, Brian Bell 50% a month without any outbound. Brian Bell This is just inbound people coming to us asking for demos. Brian Bell That’s pretty compelling.
Max Sinclair00:14:03 Yeah. Max Sinclair Well, that’s why it’s a good investment. Max Sinclair Yeah. Max Sinclair Yeah. Max Sinclair It’s true. Max Sinclair Like we, we have three salespeople in the company. Max Sinclair I stopped doing sales. Max Sinclair Like I stopped doing any sales at a million in revenue because I wanted to focus Max Sinclair completely on like a Max Sinclair delivery and customer success uh so i’m now as a founder ceo like basically you Max Sinclair know managing that side of the business like we have three sales people who are Max Sinclair doing all the demos and they’re pretty much booked all the time and like we are Max Sinclair about to hire like a go-to-market person but really we haven’t needed like a Max Sinclair go-to-market person like these are three a’s just like taking sales demos and and Max Sinclair and like you know signing owning that end-to-end sales process but we’ve not Max Sinclair We’ve not really explored any, you know, email marketing or LinkedIn. Max Sinclair Like we haven’t done any of that kind of stuff. Max Sinclair It’s all been organic coming from like the content we create. Max Sinclair We have a podcast, like we post on LinkedIn a lot. Max Sinclair And also I speak at lots of events and like speak at Shop Talk, Max Sinclair like all the big industry events. Max Sinclair Like, you know, I’ve been speaking at this about this stuff for three years. Max Sinclair So we speak at events and we get lots of people booking demos after that as well.
Brian Bell00:15:12 Yeah. Brian Bell So the content, the content strategy is working. Brian Bell So the advice to founders out there is a, Brian Bell if, Brian Bell if you’re putting your message out there and talking about it and people are Brian Bell reaching out and saying, Brian Bell Hey, Brian Bell I want to, Brian Bell I want to learn more. Brian Bell Like you might need to pivot or something.
Max Sinclair00:15:24 It doesn’t come naturally to me. Max Sinclair I think it’s quite cringy. Max Sinclair Like the whole, like, like, you know, shopping for likes on LinkedIn. Max Sinclair But like it’s really working as an engine to drive the business. Max Sinclair So you have to get over that like natural cringing. Max Sinclair I kind of feel like my parents on Facebook, Max Sinclair like I see my mom like posting stuff on Facebook and I’m just like, Max Sinclair oh, Max Sinclair that’s so cringe, Max Sinclair like posting these holiday photos or cat photos or whatever. Max Sinclair But that’s kind of like me to all matter. Max Sinclair So it’s a bit cringe, Max Sinclair but at the same time, Max Sinclair I am very passionate, Max Sinclair as you can tell, Max Sinclair about AI optimization. Max Sinclair I find lots of stuff interesting. Max Sinclair I read the Walmart and ChatGPT integration that launched last week, Max Sinclair and I’m like, Max Sinclair we’re digging in with the Max Sinclair My co-founder is a PhD. Max Sinclair We’ve got three machine learning engineers on the team. Max Sinclair So we’re like digging into all the stuff and like, you know, like I’ll put a post about it. Max Sinclair I will write a blog about it. Max Sinclair And I do enjoy that. Max Sinclair I’m interested in that. Max Sinclair And it just generates a lot of inbound, you know, demand. Max Sinclair People want to see the product and find out more.
Brian Bell00:16:16 Yeah. Brian Bell So how does it work, you know, for folks out there listening that might be customers? Brian Bell Maybe describe, you know, what’s the onboarding look like? Brian Bell What kind of value is it delivering? Brian Bell Like, how does it work under the hood? Brian Bell Things like that.
Max Sinclair00:16:29 Sure. Max Sinclair So we’ve got two patents in the business. Max Sinclair And I think, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair I think different, Max Sinclair a lot of, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair newer competitors are using what is our patents of technology. Max Sinclair And maybe one day we’ll do some moves on this. Max Sinclair But basically what we do is we ping, Max Sinclair we send like hundreds of thousands of prompts to the front end to the AI engines Max Sinclair like Chachi Patin. Max Sinclair We’re collecting the responses. Max Sinclair We’re looking at how they’re scraping the internet in terms of their web traffic. Max Sinclair And we’re looking at the responses we get back. Max Sinclair And we built a predictive model that simulates how people are actually having those Max Sinclair conversations with ChatGPT. Max Sinclair So broadly, Max Sinclair it’s parallel to how SEMrush is giving you keyword data in ChatGPT by extraction Max Sinclair and simulation. Max Sinclair It’s a similar type thing that we’re doing. Max Sinclair Sorry, they do that with Google. Max Sinclair We’re doing that, you know, not for keywords, but for conversations. Max Sinclair It’s a similar type thing. Max Sinclair So we built that technology. Max Sinclair And then basically, Max Sinclair once we can simulate how people are, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair talking to chat GPT, Max Sinclair we help our customers to generate content that is answering those conversation Max Sinclair topics. Max Sinclair So that’s product listings, blogs, recipes. Max Sinclair different types of content that we do. Max Sinclair We integrate with our customers. Max Sinclair So we integrate into their PIMs or DAMs or websites or Amazon or Walmart or whatever it is. Max Sinclair We can like do this at scale at the content generation scale. Max Sinclair And yeah, Max Sinclair basically we, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair we’re monitoring that conversation in AI search and we’re generating optimized Max Sinclair content that answers those questions and we’re driving revenue for the customers.
Brian Bell00:17:50 That’s amazing. Brian Bell And so as a customer, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell selling pots and pans or whatever, Brian Bell now I can understand how people are interacting with my brand, Brian Bell with my products.
Max Sinclair00:17:59 Yes.
Brian Bell00:17:59 At scale in all these different engines and then optimize basically the content on Brian Bell my pages, Brian Bell product listings that can then optimize that experience in these answer engines.
Max Sinclair00:18:09 Yes, exactly.
Brian Bell00:18:10 So looking out like in the near term, in the next year or two, what are you guys excited about?
Max Sinclair00:18:14 We’ve 10X in revenue in the last 10 months, and I want to continue that trajectory. Max Sinclair So we’re on a massive hiring spree. Max Sinclair Maybe strange for businesses. Max Sinclair We’re actually like startup businesses. Max Sinclair We’re profitable in Q2. Max Sinclair So we’ve raised... Max Sinclair You know, a bunch of money, but also like we’re generally like we’re generating good revenue. Max Sinclair So we like my focus now is building the right team. Max Sinclair And like, I don’t know if you have any advice on hiring. Max Sinclair It’s probably something that I found the hardest. Max Sinclair I’ve tried to take my luck. Max Sinclair I did over 100 interviews at Amazon. Max Sinclair So like, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair like I was constantly interviewing in Amazon, Max Sinclair but I find interviewing and just attracting good people to apply. Max Sinclair to azuma which is a company that you know you probably heard of if you are you know Max Sinclair in the search and e-commerce space you almost have to kind of be i think you almost
Brian Bell00:19:03 have to approach it like a spear fisherman instead of like a net fisherman i think Brian Bell you have to actually find the right person and go after them with a recruiter and Brian Bell be like this is this is all the characteristics of the kind of person we want in Brian Bell this role and then like who out there looks like this and let’s just go grab them Brian Bell rather than waiting for them to come to you
Max Sinclair00:19:19 I mean, definitely, I think it’s true. Max Sinclair Like we, Max Sinclair I find recruiters, Max Sinclair I haven’t had success working with recruiters yet and I’ve tried a few. Max Sinclair I don’t know, like if you have any.
Brian Bell00:19:27 We’ve had some on the podcast. Brian Bell Yeah, we have some on the partner list that you could try. Brian Bell Yeah, I guess we haven’t talked about that, but I can make some referrals offline for you. Brian Bell It’s, it is a challenge and it’s a challenge for me too, right? Brian Bell You know, hiring the right people. Brian Bell You know, I think the old phrase is like a higher, slow, fire, fast. Brian Bell And I think that’s a little more challenging in the UK than it is in the States, right? Brian Bell I think it’s... Because here we have no, like, it’s just no fault, you know, at will. Brian Bell You can just fire anybody for anything. Brian Bell It doesn’t matter. Brian Bell Just like, I don’t like the way your hair looks. Brian Bell You’re fired, you know?
Max Sinclair00:19:58 Yeah, it’s definitely harder. Max Sinclair And I think Europe has a big problem in that point. Max Sinclair You can’t just fire people. Max Sinclair Which means you’re a lot more cautious in hiring. Max Sinclair So like, obviously, right? Max Sinclair So it means that like companies are suffering compared to in the States where they Max Sinclair will just hire and fire at will. Max Sinclair And yeah, Max Sinclair so there’s a big problem, Max Sinclair just like probably one of the reasons why we grow so much, Max Sinclair like the European Union has grown so much slower than the US if you look at the Max Sinclair last year. Max Sinclair 20 years, right, from being similarly sized economies to like a third of the size of the U.S. Max Sinclair or half, Max Sinclair whatever it is, Max Sinclair like it’s kind of staggering how slow the European Union has grown and like, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair like general kind of life, Max Sinclair like any measure of like life happiness or whatever, Max Sinclair like is just not growing as fast as the U.S. Max Sinclair But yeah, so that’s definitely.
Brian Bell00:20:50 It turns out regulation slows innovation, you know. Brian Bell And I disagree with Trump on a lot of things, Brian Bell but one thing to him, Brian Bell what his administration is doing is removing layers and layers of complexity and Brian Bell regulation, Brian Bell just letting business do its thing, Brian Bell which is why we have all this affluence in the first place. Brian Bell It’s capitalism and businesses and scientists driving GDP gains. Brian Bell You know, one thing that we were wrestling with here in the U.S. Brian Bell recently was all the AI regulation at the state level. Brian Bell You know, Brian Bell so they tried to put that kibosh on that at the federal level and say, Brian Bell no, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell at least a hiatus on it. Brian Bell Like, hey, give it a few years. Brian Bell Let us figure out federally how to do this. Brian Bell But back to the hiring question, Brian Bell maybe a hack to consider for you is hiring remote contractors, Brian Bell contract to hire basically in other countries. Brian Bell How do you think about that? Brian Bell Like, how do you think about remote work versus?
Max Sinclair00:21:36 I didn’t love it, to be honest. Max Sinclair I think that we need to be in person. Max Sinclair We have two offices. Max Sinclair We have an office in Canada and an office in the UK. Max Sinclair All of our technical team is based in Canada, Max Sinclair my co-founder, Max Sinclair and all of our commercial team is based in the UK. Max Sinclair So sales, customer success, everything is in the UK with me. Max Sinclair I think that works really well for us. Max Sinclair I secretly quite like that there’s a notion between the sales and customer success Max Sinclair people, Max Sinclair the tech people, Max Sinclair because it kind of means that they can focus and build and Max Sinclair And like we can talk to customers and sell. Max Sinclair And obviously we have calls every day. Max Sinclair But I don’t love the idea of people either not being one of those two hubs.
Brian Bell00:22:13 Yeah. Brian Bell So anybody you hire, you definitely want them in one of those two offices.
Max Sinclair00:22:16 Yes.
Brian Bell00:22:17 You know, most days per week, it sounds like. Brian Bell Yeah, that makes sense. Brian Bell What about long term over the next five to 10 years? Brian Bell What are you excited about?
Max Sinclair00:22:24 What am I excited about? Max Sinclair I’m excited about really kind of challenging some really large companies with some Max Sinclair really senior people taking fat paychecks and doing very little. Max Sinclair And what I’m talking about are the media agencies, WPPs, Publicis, Digitas, these guys. Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair these big, Max Sinclair big billion dollar plus businesses, Max Sinclair which like owning, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair hundreds of mini agencies and have like tons of senior strategic leaders who are Max Sinclair not doing anything. Max Sinclair And this is who we compete with really. Max Sinclair Like when we’re working with our customers, Max Sinclair You know, Max Sinclair who’s doing their old SEO, Max Sinclair who’s doing the old content for the likes of Mars and Colgate is these guys, Max Sinclair right? Max Sinclair And we, Max Sinclair I think we are learning to partner with them in some cases, Max Sinclair but also, Max Sinclair and like, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair I hope we can grow some partnerships with some, Max Sinclair but also like, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair where I didn’t see us as competing with other software in it really like, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair like, Max Sinclair yes, Max Sinclair there’s other software providers, Max Sinclair startups who, Max Sinclair who kind of say they do what we do. Max Sinclair But really, Max Sinclair like if you when we with the customers, Max Sinclair we’re competing against kind of bloated companies. Max Sinclair So like we’re looking, Max Sinclair we’re looking forward to making some friends and making some foes and and kind of Max Sinclair like taking a large market share of like, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair this service industry, Max Sinclair which I think will all be AI in 50 years time, Max Sinclair like a lot of this stuff will be AI agents and we’re we’re, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair excited to lead that charge.
Brian Bell00:23:47 How do you think about funding going forward? Brian Bell Because you’re growing really fast. Brian Bell How do you think about going out for an A, Brian Bell raising 5 or 10 million and really going after the market versus self-funding at Brian Bell this point?
Max Sinclair00:23:58 I definitely want to raise a big series A. It’s an ambition of mine. Max Sinclair And the reason it’s an ambition of mine is I think part of what I just said there, Max Sinclair it announces us to our customers that, Max Sinclair hey, Max Sinclair we’re going to be the partner for you. Max Sinclair We’re going to be here for the next 20 years. Max Sinclair We’ve got more cash and you could... Max Sinclair possibly like think makes sense and you know that you know that we’re we’re a Max Sinclair partner and then secondly it shows to the market the industry that like some vcs Max Sinclair have done due diligence on the software on the product and they and they think it’s Max Sinclair got product market fit and it drives value and they’ve vindicated that with their Max Sinclair with their funds and then thirdly i think it enables us to build those partners Max Sinclair with these bigger kind of existing wpps and i’m thinking in a way which is Max Sinclair we’re going to partner with them on a more equal footing because they know like Max Sinclair we’ve got way more cash than like they could spin up a competitor internally but Max Sinclair like it’s going to be nothing compared to you know our resources and our technology Max Sinclair we built for three years and the direction we’re going to so for those reasons you Max Sinclair know it’s something that i’m i’m motivated to do even though like financially i Max Sinclair don’t need to you know like could be bootstrap but like we have very big ambitions Max Sinclair for the company so uh Max Sinclair Yeah, Max Sinclair I’ll be on a trade mission actually in LA in February, Max Sinclair and then I’ll maybe be back in San Francisco in Ireland, Max Sinclair and I think SF is still the best place to do this, Max Sinclair right? Max Sinclair So I’ll be back there in the new year, and yeah, let’s see.
Brian Bell00:25:20 Nice. Brian Bell Awesome. Brian Bell Well, let’s kind of wrap up with a rapid fire. Brian Bell So if you woke up today and you didn’t have to worry about funding, Brian Bell what bold product move would you make?
Max Sinclair00:25:28 Well, we are like all the bold product moves that we’re making, we’re doing now. Max Sinclair So it’s kind of like it’s kind of like asking me, what’s my roadmap? Max Sinclair Because I think we’ve got tons of books. Max Sinclair I think that chat GPT is obviously going to become one of the biggest challenges. Max Sinclair This is not a rapid fire answer, by the way. Max Sinclair So apologies.
Brian Bell00:25:43 That’s fine. Brian Bell Rapid-ish.
Max Sinclair00:25:45 I’ll do it rapid. Max Sinclair The rapid answer is ChatGPT Commerce is going to be big and we’re working on that. Max Sinclair And I think that’s going to be really exciting in the future.
Brian Bell00:25:53 What is that? Brian Bell GPD Comments?
Max Sinclair00:25:55 Commerce. Max Sinclair So like Shopify integration, Walmart integration, Etsy integration. Max Sinclair This is going to be massive in two, three years. Max Sinclair And yeah, we’re like, we’re very excited about what we’re doing.
Brian Bell00:26:04 They want to become the new Google, which is the portal to all the world’s information, right? Brian Bell That’s kind of Sam Altman’s vision, right? Brian Bell Like you go there and it’s like your assistant that helps you do everything. Brian Bell And shopping is a big part of commerce. Brian Bell You know, it’s a big part of our GDP. Brian Bell So that makes sense. Brian Bell Speaking of which, Brian Bell what’s a misbelief founders and people have about AI and e-commerce that you’d like Brian Bell to correct?
Max Sinclair00:26:24 AI and e-commerce. Max Sinclair I still am of the belief, two things. Max Sinclair I don’t think that you can replace human communication with AI. Max Sinclair So I don’t believe in AI SDRs. Max Sinclair You know, like sometimes I get a cold call and it’s an AI and it’s like, I am not. Max Sinclair talking to, you know, doing a cold call with an AI. Max Sinclair I don’t think you can AI like customer success. Max Sinclair I think that the customers want to talk to a human, Max Sinclair especially once they paid a lot of money for the product, Max Sinclair they want someone to hold their hand and walk them through it. Max Sinclair So I don’t, I think there’s some stuff which will not be AI automated. Max Sinclair So yeah, I think I like that would be my, yeah, that would be my hot take.
Brian Bell00:26:59 Yeah. Brian Bell What’s the single toughest negotiation you’ve had to lead so far as a founder?
Max Sinclair00:27:04 I think our team has built up of a lot of ex-founders. Max Sinclair So I have founders, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair ex-VC back founders who was actually one of my flatmates when I was on our first Max Sinclair accelerator. Max Sinclair We’ve got other people who have exited, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair had exits and are friends of mine who’ve joined the company. Max Sinclair You know, two people were hired from accelerators, one a friend in the software space. Max Sinclair And I mean, Max Sinclair the hardest negotiation is convincing really smart people who could be founding Max Sinclair their own companies and will do it again in the future to come and be part of your Max Sinclair mission for the next three to five years. Max Sinclair That’s really tough. Max Sinclair And that’s the hardest one that I’ve done.
Brian Bell00:27:39 Yeah, that is hard. Brian Bell How do you decide when to build versus integrate a partner or partner for a new capability? Brian Bell Build by partner.
Max Sinclair00:27:46 We have built everything ourselves. Max Sinclair We don’t rely on any partners. Max Sinclair We want to completely control the customer implementation experience. Max Sinclair I mean, obviously we’re using the open source LLMs and whatnot. Max Sinclair So like, Max Sinclair we’re using AWS, Max Sinclair we’re using ChatGPT, Max Sinclair but we would not, Max Sinclair I think we’re not using any, Max Sinclair and HubSpot, Max Sinclair so I guess it’s not really true, Max Sinclair but like, Max Sinclair Certainly in the product we want.
Brian Bell00:28:09 At some point, you’re not going to build your own CRM. Brian Bell I mean, that’s undifferentiated work, you know?
Max Sinclair00:28:14 Yeah, Max Sinclair but broadly...
Brian Bell00:28:15 Unless there was a really good business reason, Brian Bell like, Brian Bell oh, Brian Bell I’m going to build this really special CRM that, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell is a competitive advantage for us.
Max Sinclair00:28:22 But I’d say maybe anything to do with the customer... Max Sinclair an implementation of like how our product adds value to our customers. Max Sinclair We will build that ourselves. Max Sinclair We will not use any third party unless it’s kind of something we cannot replicate. Max Sinclair Building a new LLM, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair and the trillion dollar investments have gone into open AI, Max Sinclair like we’re not going to be able to replicate that.
Brian Bell00:28:43 What’s an AI trend that’s kind of under the radar that deserves more attention right now?
Max Sinclair00:28:47 Well, Max Sinclair one that I’ve started using and it kind of relates to our earlier conversation Max Sinclair about hiring is AI recruiters. Max Sinclair We kind of, it’s a very cool company called Jack and Jill. Max Sinclair And you kind of, Max Sinclair as a candidate, Max Sinclair you interact with voice and you explain what you want in a role. Max Sinclair And also as a hirer, Max Sinclair as a company and employer, Max Sinclair you interact with voice as well and you explain what candidates you want and they Max Sinclair match with them. Max Sinclair So I think Max Sinclair Voice AI, when you elect to use it, is a really interesting thing. Max Sinclair Like I said before, I don’t think you can go cold to people with AI. Max Sinclair I think they’ll hate it. Max Sinclair You don’t want to get a cold AI email. Max Sinclair You don’t want to get a cold AI call. Max Sinclair But I think certainly there’s many, many use cases where if you’re Max Sinclair You’re opting to use AI because you want the scale of AI. Max Sinclair You want it to be sourcing thousands, hundreds of thousands of candidates and like all of that. Max Sinclair There’s definitely places AI is advantageous over humans. Max Sinclair And yeah, in those cases, I think it’s really interesting.
Brian Bell00:29:41 Yeah. Brian Bell How do you maintain content quality at scale while avoiding hallucinations or Brian Bell errors in the platform?
Max Sinclair00:29:47 Well, we’ve got a pattern that focuses on this. Max Sinclair So, you know, you can ask my co-founder as a PhD in postdoc. Max Sinclair We’ve worked very hard on this. Max Sinclair I think it was a lot harder problem maybe when we started out than it is now. Max Sinclair I think the models do a much better job at stopping hallucinations themselves. Max Sinclair But certainly when we were selling this, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair two years ago, Max Sinclair we were very much focused on the product and controlling for hallucinations.
Brian Bell00:30:08 Looking back at your Amazon days, Brian Bell what’s a leadership principle or lesson that you still apply every day?
Max Sinclair00:30:13 I love it. Max Sinclair I love it. Max Sinclair Well, there’s two which we’ve copied into our company. Max Sinclair The first is insist on the highest standards, Max Sinclair which was always my favorite at Amazon when I was managing people. Max Sinclair I love that ruthless focus on just like higher and higher standards and holding Max Sinclair people yourself and team members to them. Max Sinclair We’ve directly, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair we’ve basically taken that verbatim as one of our four principles in our company Max Sinclair from Amazon. Max Sinclair And the second one we haven’t taken verbatim, Max Sinclair but we’ve been inspired by is, Max Sinclair of course, Max Sinclair customer obsession, Max Sinclair the kind of, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair the OG principle. Max Sinclair And we have adapted it in our own unique way. Max Sinclair But yeah, that’s a key one as well.
Brian Bell00:30:51 Yeah, I love that. Brian Bell I haven’t sat down and wrote out the principles for Team Ignite yet. Brian Bell I should do that at some point. Brian Bell Probably copy a lot from Amazon.
Max Sinclair00:30:57 Yeah, I had six and now have four because actually I found that we have a team of 20. Max Sinclair I think on reflection, Max Sinclair one of the things Amazon did brilliantly is that you talk to any employee and they Max Sinclair will tell you the 14 leadership principles and they will try and optimize their Max Sinclair work for it. Max Sinclair I mean, it’s insane how ingrained that culture was. Max Sinclair And it’s really, really hard. Max Sinclair And that’s why I decided that we’re going to, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair I narrowed it down to four because I want people to be able to remember four. Max Sinclair And I, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair try and talk about whenever I talk to the team, Max Sinclair you know, Max Sinclair I talk about in terms of one of those four. Max Sinclair So that’s what I hope I can learn from Emerson.
Brian Bell00:31:32 Well, this was an awesome conversation. Brian Bell Thanks for coming on and catching up with me.
Max Sinclair00:31:36 Thanks, Brian. Max Sinclair Appreciate you.
