Amar Hanspal00:00:00 If you start something, you better care about the problem you’re trying to solve. Amar Hanspal Otherwise, you’ll get bored and you’ll drop out after a while. Amar Hanspal That’s one. Amar Hanspal Second thing I’ve learned is that the art of all of this is it’s all about execution. Amar Hanspal I hear so many people come and tell me, Amar Hanspal this competitor is doing this, Amar Hanspal the competitor is doing that. Amar Hanspal None of that actually matters. Amar Hanspal What really matters is the thing that you’re trying to do. Amar Hanspal Are you able to keep iterating? Amar Hanspal Whether you listen to customers, the people who succeed very well, Amar Hanspal The example you gave about the warmly gentleman, like you open, close. Amar Hanspal That is the art of building, which is like you listen. Amar Hanspal You try something. Amar Hanspal You figure it out. Amar Hanspal Does it work? Amar Hanspal You iterate. Amar Hanspal Execution is a huge amount of the challenge that you need to take on. Amar Hanspal It’s not the original idea. Amar Hanspal And then the third one is that the team is everything. Amar Hanspal Startups to me, the team you build is the product you build is the company you build. Amar Hanspal It’s so true.
Brian Bell00:01:12 Hey, everyone. Brian Bell Welcome back to the Ignite podcast. Brian Bell Today, we’re thrilled to have Amar Hanspal on the mic. Brian Bell He is a veteran of design software, Brian Bell former co-CEO and CPO at Autodesk, Brian Bell founder of Bright Machines, Brian Bell and now leading the charge at Motif, Brian Bell a startup reimagining tools for architecture, Brian Bell engineering, Brian Bell and construction. Brian Bell Amar, thanks for coming on. Brian Bell Hey, Brian. Brian Bell Thanks for having me. Brian Bell Good to be here. Brian Bell Yeah, super excited to sit down with you today. Brian Bell I’d love to get your origin story for the audience. Brian Bell What’s your background?
Amar Hanspal00:01:37 I grew up as a mechanical engineer. Amar Hanspal That’s what I was trained to do. Amar Hanspal And I know it’s kind of sounds quaint that, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal I would talk about the eighties and stuff like that, Amar Hanspal but I kind of got introduced to using computers for engineering back in the Amar Hanspal eighties. Amar Hanspal And that kind of led one thing led to another. Amar Hanspal And that’s kind of how I got involved with CAD back in the late eighties. Amar Hanspal And in those days, Amar Hanspal It used to run on sort of what people used to call microvaxes, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal sort of mini computers. Amar Hanspal They’re still, you know, sit in a closet and stuff like that. Amar Hanspal But I did that at the university, kind of got hooked on it. Amar Hanspal PCs started emerging. Amar Hanspal CAD got onto the PC. Amar Hanspal I ended up in California by accident and stumbled on Autodesk in 87, Amar Hanspal when it was a really small company. Amar Hanspal with 250 people, just getting started, had one product, which was called AutoCAD at the time. Amar Hanspal I just kind of got hooked on that whole experience of watching innovation, Amar Hanspal doing something on a disruptive kind of, Amar Hanspal PCs were very new and exciting at that time. Amar Hanspal And my first job was actually doing technical support. Amar Hanspal I used to take, in the days of phone calls, I used to take 100 phone calls a day from customers. Amar Hanspal And that was a good training ground for Amar Hanspal Not just understanding how people are using the software, Amar Hanspal but actually understanding how customers operate emotionally. Amar Hanspal Like how do you listen well? Amar Hanspal How do you kind of draw synthesis of what’s important to them? Amar Hanspal And in some ways, Amar Hanspal those were the dots that connected that led me to then do product management and Amar Hanspal business leadership. Amar Hanspal And that’s kind of the snowball of what led me to what I ended up doing.
Brian Bell00:03:11 Yeah, I love that. Brian Bell Sitting on the phone 100 calls a day really creates a lot of empathy for the Brian Bell customer and how they’re using it, Brian Bell what their problems are. Brian Bell It’s a good place to start, Brian Bell I think, Brian Bell if you’re 22, Brian Bell 23 years old and out of college and you don’t know where to start. Brian Bell Support or sales is a really, both, is a really good place to start building that empathy.
Amar Hanspal00:03:31 Absolutely. Amar Hanspal 100% agree with you. Amar Hanspal And I think just so many stories from those days, Amar Hanspal very entertaining experiences, Amar Hanspal but I learned a lot. Amar Hanspal And I was fortunate to do that both in the United States and I had two and a half Amar Hanspal years out in Europe. Amar Hanspal So actually also exposed me to like a global, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal reality of doing business around the world. Amar Hanspal So what happened next? Amar Hanspal there were two or three formative experiences for me in this, Amar Hanspal like, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal so when I, Amar Hanspal I did customer support for like seven years and that whole idea of like listening Amar Hanspal to customers led me to start doing product management. Amar Hanspal And this was in the mid nineties. Amar Hanspal And I just got put on a project that was of critical importance to the company. Amar Hanspal It is, you know, that time we were re-architecting the product, the, Amar Hanspal hadn’t gone well and the company was lurching into a bit of a financial crisis. Amar Hanspal And that product management experience for me was like a very fast way of like Amar Hanspal learning how to translate, Amar Hanspal bridging both sort of empathy with customers into creating value. Amar Hanspal Like there’s no other way. Amar Hanspal Again, in two and a half years, I just very quickly had to learn Amar Hanspal not only how you listen well, Amar Hanspal but how do you select well from everything that you’re listening so you can come up Amar Hanspal with a win-win. Amar Hanspal And then in 99, my second experience, so that one was actually a successful experience. Amar Hanspal And they always say like you learn a lot more from your failures. Amar Hanspal So the next thing I ended up doing, Amar Hanspal I actually left Autodesk in the late 90s and in the Web 1.0 world, Amar Hanspal two friends and I tried to build a Amar Hanspal In those days, you know, online B2B kind of commerce company. Amar Hanspal Two and a half years, it was, again, learned a lot. Amar Hanspal We failed. Amar Hanspal We didn’t get far enough. Amar Hanspal And that one taught me about sales. Amar Hanspal That experience was all about, Amar Hanspal like, Amar Hanspal as an entrepreneur, Amar Hanspal one of the things that you have to learn to do is ask for money. Amar Hanspal Because in a large company, Amar Hanspal you have all these teams and functions and you build a product and somebody else Amar Hanspal goes and sells it for you. Amar Hanspal In a small company, you are chief cook and bottle washer all at the same time, right? Amar Hanspal So we had the experience of not just having to build a product, Amar Hanspal but then going and showing it to a customer and say, Amar Hanspal will you pay us for this? Amar Hanspal And that was a really humbling experience. Amar Hanspal And that was my second really formative experience. Amar Hanspal And then what happened for me after that, Amar Hanspal after that company folded in the first dot-com bubble that went down in early 2000s Amar Hanspal was I came back to Autodesk and got put into a bunch of P&L roles and sort of, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal started with a $5 million business that became 50, Amar Hanspal then got put on the $800 million business and got put on the $2.5 billion business Amar Hanspal and then on the entire company. Amar Hanspal That’s sort of what
Brian Bell00:06:02 Amazing. Brian Bell And it sounds like that was maybe also a lesson in timing too, right? Brian Bell Because it sounded like, you know, it’s the internet. Brian Bell Hey, let’s bring B2B commerce online. Brian Bell And not everyone was ready to transact like that, probably at that point.
Amar Hanspal00:06:15 And yeah, you’re absolutely right, Brian. Amar Hanspal It was timing. Amar Hanspal It was also, Amar Hanspal you come up with ideas in like sitting around whiteboarding, Amar Hanspal but when you go ask a customer, Amar Hanspal they’re like, Amar Hanspal that’s not my problem. Amar Hanspal This is my problem. Amar Hanspal And then you’re trying to like pivot and all those kinds of things. Amar Hanspal And Amar Hanspal All of those learnings were good, but we ultimately ran out of time to be able to get it done.
Brian Bell00:06:38 A couple of podcast episodes before you, Brian Bell Max was on from Warmly and he talked about open and closed periods where you go Brian Bell into a closed period and you’re like, Brian Bell you’re going to go after the idea and you set a timeline, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell 30 days. Brian Bell And if you’re not feeling the market pull, Brian Bell you switch and go to an open period where you kind of try out some other ideas and Brian Bell then you go back into a closed period. Brian Bell I thought that was a really good analogy. Brian Bell He went through six pivots himself. Brian Bell Wow. Brian Bell over five years before you really found product market fit. Brian Bell So what happened next? Brian Bell So did you guys actually raise some money for this startup?
Amar Hanspal00:07:09 Yeah. Amar Hanspal So as part of that first startup experience, we raised $17 million. Amar Hanspal I always call it, it was my $17 million MBA. Amar Hanspal We learned a lot. Amar Hanspal Yeah, when the startup folded, we did return money to investors. Amar Hanspal We hadn’t used it all up, so we did return. Amar Hanspal And then when I went back to Autodesk and started running those P&Ls, Amar Hanspal the project that sort of... Amar Hanspal And again, Amar Hanspal there were two projects for me that really were meaningful. Amar Hanspal One was what the investor world understands is our transition to subscription. Amar Hanspal So we were... Amar Hanspal An on-premise company, on-premise for Autodesk was on desktop effectively. Amar Hanspal Over the course of almost a decade, Amar Hanspal we tried to build products that were either cloud-native or hybrid to support the Amar Hanspal overall goals of the company. Amar Hanspal And that was a really, really fascinating change management project to run a Amar Hanspal Large product organization of 3,000 people through that change was a lot. Amar Hanspal And then as part of that, Amar Hanspal go after a completely new area that Autodesk didn’t have any business in, Amar Hanspal which was construction. Amar Hanspal And we were able to leverage mobile and web to go after a segment that we had not serviced. Amar Hanspal previously. Amar Hanspal And that was the next thing that we were able to go to. Amar Hanspal So those were like really fun projects, Amar Hanspal which led me to the chief product officer role because of, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal we were able to pull this off and then also the co-CEO of the company as we went Amar Hanspal into the next era.
Brian Bell00:08:35 Amazing. Brian Bell And then at some point you transitioned into Bright Machines. Brian Bell Maybe you could talk about that transition and how did that come about?
Amar Hanspal00:08:41 So in 2017, I left Autodesk. Amar Hanspal It has to do with the fact that we had an activist investor and there were some Amar Hanspal I vaguely recall the news on that.
Brian Bell00:08:51 Yeah,
Amar Hanspal00:08:52 there was a lot of discussions whether we keep going down the innovation route or Amar Hanspal optimize the business models. Amar Hanspal I was firmly in the innovation camp. Amar Hanspal Like that’s what I believed in driving growth. Amar Hanspal And so I left in 2017. Amar Hanspal And I think at that time, Amar Hanspal just that vector has continued to this day is that there’s so much new capabilities Amar Hanspal coming online. Amar Hanspal And at that time, I was very fascinated by computer vision. Amar Hanspal What I like saying is that in the mid... Amar Hanspal 20, it became clear that computers could see in addition to computers being able to count. Amar Hanspal And so you’re like, what problems can you go solve now that computers can see? Amar Hanspal And you look at Waymo today, autonomous cars, you look at drones and flying objects. Amar Hanspal And so we got interested, Brian and I, in assembly lines, like manufacturing. Amar Hanspal And Bright Machines was a result of that. Amar Hanspal We got connected to this team in a Amar Hanspal manufacturing firm called flextronics that was trying to deploy robotics in a scale Amar Hanspal and a lot of the problems that they were having we thought okay we can go solve Amar Hanspal using computer vision operation picking placing all these things were vision driven Amar Hanspal challenges so bright machines was about giving as i say eyes and brains to robots Amar Hanspal and uh that was a really fun project we did that for three years Amar Hanspal from 2018 to about the end of 2021. Amar Hanspal The company’s still around. Amar Hanspal I decided to want to leave it and go back to the building industry. Amar Hanspal So we had done factories and that’s kind of what this current project is about. Amar Hanspal But that was my bright machines.
Brian Bell00:10:22 And so the, yeah, the current project is motif. Brian Bell Maybe you could talk about that, the conception. Brian Bell What was your aha moment to start that?
Amar Hanspal00:10:28 The origin story of Motif is the following. Amar Hanspal I wanted to do something in the building industry because it’s simply so important to humanity. Amar Hanspal I know that kind of sounds a little grandiose, Amar Hanspal but, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal the building industry employs the second largest number of people in the world. Amar Hanspal It’s 23 million people who work in the building industry. Amar Hanspal It contributes 40% of greenhouse gases. Amar Hanspal It’s got a huge carbon footprint. Amar Hanspal So if you start thinking about doing something good for the planet, Amar Hanspal the building industry is a great place to start. Amar Hanspal And for me, just where I’m in my career, I was like, I got one project left. Amar Hanspal I want to do something meaningful. Amar Hanspal I’ve had my fun in terms of career and things like that. Amar Hanspal Let’s go do something that has a... Amar Hanspal potential to have a big impact here so we picked the billing industry and the more Amar Hanspal time we spent at it and i’d spent a bunch of time at autodesk but it had been seven Amar Hanspal years and i came back to this industry and said like what’s an unsolved problem Amar Hanspal here and what became more and more clear to us as we brian and i investigated this Amar Hanspal was that the design stack for buildings had not changed in 27 years while the Amar Hanspal methods had evolved Amar Hanspal So you had all these interesting buildings, Amar Hanspal new materials, Amar Hanspal new methods, Amar Hanspal new generation, Amar Hanspal but people were using things that were software systems that were designed in the Amar Hanspal late 90s, Amar Hanspal like 1998 was the state of the art. Amar Hanspal And I was like, that was what stood out to us. Amar Hanspal And then the more time we spent with Amar Hanspal modern cloud machine learning technology and try to think through what we could do Amar Hanspal differently, Amar Hanspal it became clear that we could connect the dots, Amar Hanspal modernize the design process, Amar Hanspal as well as build something that could help people design better and address the Amar Hanspal challenges of today, Amar Hanspal which is what led us to Motif. Amar Hanspal Now, Amar Hanspal we’re only two years, Amar Hanspal just over two years in our journey of like these things take five, Amar Hanspal seven years to build. Amar Hanspal So I would say we’re probably, our progress meter is 30% of the way through. Amar Hanspal So we have a lot left to do, but that’s the journey we’re on.
Brian Bell00:12:21 What are some of the core technical and UX challenges that you had to tackle first Brian Bell or are currently tackling?
Amar Hanspal00:12:28 First two that I think everyone can relate to is building industry is one that Amar Hanspal involves a lot of players. Amar Hanspal Like every project, Amar Hanspal you have an architect, Amar Hanspal you have a structural engineer, Amar Hanspal you have a contractor, Amar Hanspal you have specialty, Amar Hanspal acoustic. Amar Hanspal You have all these like, just like in healthcare, you have like, Amar Hanspal special specialties that come together to take care of a patient the building Amar Hanspal industry is the same way which is you get a team together to build this building Amar Hanspal and so the ability to share information easily is not something that people have Amar Hanspal access to today so that’s the one of the technical challenges the web is actually Amar Hanspal good at this but to your user experience point of view designing a user experience Amar Hanspal that just works well on top of that is not easy Amar Hanspal So that’s one challenge. Amar Hanspal Second, Amar Hanspal I would say that is a challenge of just engineering from an engineering perspective Amar Hanspal is that while browsers are great for ease of use, Amar Hanspal they’re not great at handling huge amounts of data. Amar Hanspal And if you think about a building and designing a building, Amar Hanspal you have lots and lots of data that you need to bring to bear to the design Amar Hanspal process. Amar Hanspal So one of the other challenges we are tackling is how do you get huge amounts of Amar Hanspal data to work inside a small browser and deal with all of the latency of the Amar Hanspal internet and give a good experience? Amar Hanspal So those are a couple of the early challenges. Amar Hanspal There’s many more that we’re tackling that sound more nerdy if I get into it, Amar Hanspal where you talk about parametrics and that starts becoming very domain specific. Amar Hanspal But those are just a couple of the big things that we have to go tackling.
Brian Bell00:13:59 You know, Brian Bell it’s interesting if you look at the history of technology, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell we went from mainframes to terminals to, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell PCs on our desks back to kind of, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell mainframes with the browsers or terminal, Brian Bell right?
Amar Hanspal00:14:10 Yes.
Brian Bell00:14:11 Pretty crazy.
Amar Hanspal00:14:12 Exactly.
Brian Bell00:14:13 So who’s the customer and kind of what problem are you kind of solving for them?
Amar Hanspal00:14:17 Right. Amar Hanspal I mean, Amar Hanspal the industry is very large and it consists of architects and engineering firms, Amar Hanspal general contractors. Amar Hanspal We’re beginning with architecture firms. Amar Hanspal So I think they are the origin of design. Amar Hanspal Every project starts with a sketch and early what they call a massing model. Amar Hanspal And then it turns into a design. Amar Hanspal So those people are our first customers. Amar Hanspal Over time, we hope to serve many more people in the industry with a broader set of tools. Amar Hanspal We’re starting with architecture firms, Amar Hanspal and our first product is really focused on the sharing of information. Amar Hanspal And the way I would describe it is if you’re used to whiteboarding tools like Miro, Amar Hanspal or sharing, you know, for whatever, creating mood boards and sharing stuff. Amar Hanspal Well, in the building industry, to share information, you have to make all of that work in 3D. Amar Hanspal So our first product is like a 3D mirror where you can bring in information from Amar Hanspal various data sources, Amar Hanspal create the project, Amar Hanspal recreate the project in a 3D digital form, Amar Hanspal and then do a bunch of like what people would call review. Amar Hanspal Like you’re able to give feedback on these designs, spot problems and things like that. Amar Hanspal That’s our first product that is, again, one of many that we’re developing. Amar Hanspal The next one we will develop for the architecture team at firms of this world is Amar Hanspal actually a modeling application where people can start to add things like walls, Amar Hanspal doors, Amar Hanspal windows, Amar Hanspal and things like that to actually create real buildings.
Brian Bell00:15:40 How do you kind of meet the architects where they are with the current tooling? Brian Bell Is it interoperable with existing formats and legacy platforms and AutoCAD and all that? Brian Bell Yes, exactly. Brian Bell Where do you integrate or replace?
Amar Hanspal00:15:52 That’s a great question. Amar Hanspal So we integrate really well. Amar Hanspal So interoperability was like one of the fundamental. Amar Hanspal We realized that we have to coexist with the existing tool set. Amar Hanspal And we are going to have to coexist for a relatively long time because we’re coming Amar Hanspal into an industry Amar Hanspal has been using a set of tools for 27 years. Amar Hanspal They’re not going to change over tomorrow. Amar Hanspal They’ll take whatever, how many ever years it takes to change over. Amar Hanspal So yeah, we import information. Amar Hanspal We send information back. Amar Hanspal We interoperate from the get-go so we can be part of the ecosystem. Amar Hanspal Strategically, you know, I try to Amar Hanspal Phrase this as it’s embrace and then replace. Amar Hanspal So you’re taking on like an easy or becoming fitting into the workflow and then Amar Hanspal hopefully getting the opportunity to do more for the customer. Amar Hanspal So they start using the traditional tool less and less. Amar Hanspal And, you know, and you do it like, you know, one, whatever analogy you want to use, like your. Amar Hanspal don’t like this one where people say you boil the frog like you do it kind of like Amar Hanspal gradually take over the the role of the main over time you you go back to the
Brian Bell00:16:54 original legacy tool less and less and less exactly until until the point where wow Brian Bell i’ve done the entire building in motif and i haven’t even gone back to my old tool
Amar Hanspal00:17:04 Exactly.
Brian Bell00:17:05 What is it about? Brian Bell Is it kind of like a cursor for design, basically? Brian Bell So it just helps you go faster and use AI?
Amar Hanspal00:17:12 Yeah, the analogy I’d use is it’s a combination of Figma and cursor for buildings. Amar Hanspal And when I look at Figma, it’s like, listen, it’s very accessible. Amar Hanspal The ease of use is there. Amar Hanspal It’s web-based and it’s collaborative. Amar Hanspal Like it’s designed for that design. Amar Hanspal the way of easy sharing and easy sort of creation. Amar Hanspal And the cursor aspect of it is that it lifts the interaction model to being more Amar Hanspal intelligent so that you’re not doing things pick and click, Amar Hanspal pick and click, Amar Hanspal pick and click. Amar Hanspal You really can interact with the system and say, can you do this for me? Amar Hanspal Can you do that for me? Amar Hanspal You’re directing it as opposed to micromanaging it. Amar Hanspal So that’s the combination. Amar Hanspal And look, it’s a vertical tool. Amar Hanspal So it’s very, really only works for this particular domain. Amar Hanspal We try to understand buildings and understand the topology, Amar Hanspal the practice, Amar Hanspal the constraints of buildings, Amar Hanspal and try to make that experience comfortable.
Brian Bell00:18:05 How has go-to-market been for you? Brian Bell What’s been challenging, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell going from big company to small company, Brian Bell back to big company, Brian Bell back to small company?
Amar Hanspal00:18:12 I enjoy that. Amar Hanspal So, I mean, let me answer your question on go to market brand. Amar Hanspal I mean, we’ve been fortunate that customers have really welcomed us with open arms. Amar Hanspal We’ve got like we’ve been in market for six months. Amar Hanspal We’ve got lots of people engaging with us, Amar Hanspal giving us feedback, Amar Hanspal buying the product, Amar Hanspal using the product. Amar Hanspal So even this first step that we’ve taken has been met very positively by customers. Amar Hanspal We’re learning to do this at scale. Amar Hanspal So we’re, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal so far we’ve been doing it as, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal I would say human-centric, Amar Hanspal like human in the loop, Amar Hanspal like everything we’re doing involves a human. Amar Hanspal We’re going to go to more automated, what product-led growth kind of style of doing this. Amar Hanspal Personally, Amar Hanspal I’ve enjoyed the variety of like working at a large company where you have, Amar Hanspal the wonderful thing about a large company is all this infrastructure and customer Amar Hanspal base you can work with. Amar Hanspal But you’ve got huge amounts of challenges and aligning and driving humans. Amar Hanspal In a small company like ours, Amar Hanspal the alignment and sort of collaboration within the company is straightforward. Amar Hanspal It’s the fun part. Amar Hanspal Everybody’s got one mission. Amar Hanspal Yes, it’s harder to go. Amar Hanspal You have to do so much yourself. Amar Hanspal You don’t have infrastructure. Amar Hanspal You don’t have customers. Amar Hanspal You’ve got to do all of that heavy lifting yourself. Amar Hanspal But on the other hand, it’s really invigorating. Amar Hanspal I am drawn to innovation. Amar Hanspal there’s no better place than a small startup to go experience that.
Brian Bell00:19:35 Yeah. Brian Bell I would love to get you further tug on that thread a little bit as someone who’s, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell been an exec at big companies versus a founder. Brian Bell How do you, how do you adjust to that? Brian Bell And how would you advise maybe folks in their twenties and thirties listening to Brian Bell the pod to think about taking the leap and doing a startup versus continuing to, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell refine their skillset and in a larger corporate structure. Brian Bell And yeah, what would you, what would you say to somebody in that? Brian Bell I mean,
Amar Hanspal00:20:00 I can talk for hours on that, Brian. Amar Hanspal I mean, Amar Hanspal what I’d say is that the things I’ve learned over the years, Amar Hanspal maybe I’ll pick three things that I will emphasize. Amar Hanspal First is that, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal startups are easy to start and really hard to finish because, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal you can have an idea. Amar Hanspal And nowadays, Amar Hanspal especially with all the vibe coding tools and all, Amar Hanspal like you can get a prototype out and you might even get a couple of people say, Amar Hanspal that’s cool. Amar Hanspal to turn prototype into production code and then do all of this stuff around like oh Amar Hanspal we need like this whole infrastructure and it needs to stand up 99.9 it needs to be Amar Hanspal secure and you have a customer who pays you so the site can’t go down like that Amar Hanspal stuff stuff becomes hard and then you have to try and scale and find more customers Amar Hanspal so the journey when you decide to be an entrepreneur you’ve got to have it in you Amar Hanspal that you’re not doing this for a quick flip Amar Hanspal You know, Amar Hanspal we all hear about a lovable went from zero to 500 million in like two days, Amar Hanspal but that’s like the black swan event. Amar Hanspal The majority of startups is a grind. Amar Hanspal It’s more like climbing a mountain than anything else. Amar Hanspal Like it’s really a grind and you kind of have to go through that. Amar Hanspal So you kind of really care about the problem you’re going to solve. Amar Hanspal So that’s the way I would say is that the one thing, Amar Hanspal and I’m not saying any of this to scare anyone out, Amar Hanspal is that if you start something, Amar Hanspal you better care about the problem you’re trying to solve. Amar Hanspal Otherwise you’ll get bored and you’ll drop out. Amar Hanspal after a while. Amar Hanspal Okay, that’s one. Amar Hanspal Second thing I’ve learned is that the art of all of this is it’s all about execution. Amar Hanspal Like I hear so many people come and tell me, Amar Hanspal this competitor is doing this, Amar Hanspal the competitor is doing that. Amar Hanspal Like none of that actually matters. Amar Hanspal What really matters is the thing that you’re trying to do. Amar Hanspal Are you able to keep iterating? Amar Hanspal Like whether you listen to customers, Amar Hanspal like the people who succeed very well, Amar Hanspal like the example you gave about the warmly gentleman, Amar Hanspal like you open, Amar Hanspal close. Amar Hanspal That is the art of building, which is like you listen, you try something, Amar Hanspal You figure it out. Amar Hanspal Does it work? Amar Hanspal You iterate. Amar Hanspal Execution is a huge amount of the challenge that you need to take on. Amar Hanspal It’s not the original idea. Amar Hanspal And then the third one is that the team is everything. Amar Hanspal Startups to me, Amar Hanspal Vinod Khosla says the team you build is the product you build is the company you Amar Hanspal build. Amar Hanspal It’s so true. Amar Hanspal The small teams, these are very much like if you’re an NBA fan, it’s like, that’s it. Amar Hanspal You’re 15 people on a court. Amar Hanspal That’s it. Amar Hanspal And so you better get the right people in that small team. Amar Hanspal roster that you have, those are the three most important things to me. Amar Hanspal And the rest is you have to personally have good high amounts of energy and a lot Amar Hanspal of curiosity and low ego. Amar Hanspal You’re going to get beaten up a lot along the way. Amar Hanspal But the fun that you have, Amar Hanspal the thing that is really addictive about startups is that you watch things that are Amar Hanspal just ideas come to life in such rapid fashion that it just becomes like this thing Amar Hanspal of, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal I had this moment where a year after Brian and I started the company, Amar Hanspal we’re sitting at a dinner with the team and we look down the table and there’s all Amar Hanspal of a sudden 20 people there. Amar Hanspal You’re like, when did this happen? Amar Hanspal And then you have a customer and then you have a, Amar Hanspal company and then you have investors and all of a sudden this thing takes shape and Amar Hanspal that’s just there’s no feeling like it in the world that’s amazing so thinking
Brian Bell00:23:11 about ai and ml for a sec transforming architecture engineering construction what Brian Bell are some realistic versus speculative bets and things you’re you’re making in this Brian Bell area what are you excited about yeah
Amar Hanspal00:23:24 So, look, I think the thing about the path forward to the AIML is, I think, twofold. Amar Hanspal One is, Amar Hanspal I think, Amar Hanspal finding the mundane problems to go solve, Amar Hanspal because architecture, Amar Hanspal engineering, Amar Hanspal and construction is filled with drudgery. Amar Hanspal Like, you know, you think about the permitting process. Amar Hanspal So, Amar Hanspal you think about, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal you think about architecture, Amar Hanspal you think, Amar Hanspal oh, Amar Hanspal you’re this amazing Frank Gehry, Amar Hanspal like, Amar Hanspal designer coming up with this great idea. Amar Hanspal Like, Amar Hanspal 90% of what happens with buildings is you’ve got to produce a thousand drawings, Amar Hanspal you’ve got to... Amar Hanspal review a thousand drawings. Amar Hanspal You then have to stamp a thousand drawings. Amar Hanspal You got to go to the, like that’s the boring stuff. Amar Hanspal So I think the opportunity of AI ML is actually to make all of that simpler rather Amar Hanspal than the flashy stuff. Amar Hanspal Like that’s the first thing I would say. Amar Hanspal Second thing I would say is that you got to pay attention to where the foundation Amar Hanspal models are evolving. Amar Hanspal Like the stuff that is, Amar Hanspal becoming more possible. Amar Hanspal Like you watch the diffusion models get better, Amar Hanspal things like Nano Banana and all these things showing up. Amar Hanspal And the more the foundation models are capable of handling stuff, Amar Hanspal the more you can do for this industry. Amar Hanspal And so the opportunity is really the gap between the mundane user problem that Amar Hanspal you’ve identified and what the foundation model does. Amar Hanspal and you create this sort of fine tuning layer that connects those two that’s the Amar Hanspal thing that that’s what i think we’re getting good at as a company as motif to go Amar Hanspal solve the customers helping us identify the problems our engineers are figuring out Amar Hanspal what the foundation models can do and we’re connecting those yeah it’s a really
Brian Bell00:24:51 exciting time you know we have a platform shift right and you think about the tools Brian Bell that were built you know 27 years ago that was kind of the last platform shift Brian Bell right exactly Brian Bell software and cloud delivered software internet you know then you had you know Brian Bell mobile i guess but that wouldn’t impact architects that much this space as much so Brian Bell really it kind of makes sense that the tools are 20 plus years old because you know Brian Bell the the last platform shift happened that long ago Brian Bell Right. Brian Bell And now you have AI. Brian Bell But to what degree, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell do you think and I’m sure you wrestled with this question as you set out to do Brian Bell another startup is like, Brian Bell maybe I just go back to a big company and build AI tools tooling into the existing Brian Bell platform platforms versus, Brian Bell hey, Brian Bell maybe maybe this platform shift enables completely new tool sets.
Amar Hanspal00:25:37 So I picked door number two.
Brian Bell00:25:40 So yeah,
Amar Hanspal00:25:40 I mean, Amar Hanspal I think, Amar Hanspal look, Amar Hanspal I think back to the strengths of a big company, Amar Hanspal you have customers, Amar Hanspal you potentially have access to data, Amar Hanspal but you’re kind of constrained by the form factor of the tools that already exist. Amar Hanspal And you’re watching people. Amar Hanspal I mean, the most striking contrast is like you watch ChatGPT versus Google. Amar Hanspal you know, Google. Amar Hanspal I guess this whole tug of war is where are you going to get your questions answered? Amar Hanspal And there is something very addictive about going to ChatGPT and turning this into Amar Hanspal a conversation versus the Google search that we’ve been used to. Amar Hanspal And I think that when I thought about the design problem, Amar Hanspal for example, Amar Hanspal current tools are very geometry centric, Amar Hanspal right? Amar Hanspal If you think about the way people design buildings, Amar Hanspal you’re doing everything in shapes, Amar Hanspal you’re doing a wall. Amar Hanspal The reality of when you’re doing design is that you’re working in all of this Amar Hanspal context of building codes and site constraints and things like that. Amar Hanspal And so when you go with a clean sheet of paper, Amar Hanspal you can really expand your thinking to go attack a bigger set of problems. Amar Hanspal And that’s why I picked door number two is that let’s go do something from the Amar Hanspal ground up, Amar Hanspal which lets us... Amar Hanspal clean sheet of paper, really. Amar Hanspal And, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal I also believe to the, Amar Hanspal I think the point you’re making is, Amar Hanspal I do think the big leaps in capabilities have come when people have fundamentally Amar Hanspal reimagined and experienced, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal Amazon with retail is like one of the best examples of Netflix. Amar Hanspal You just start with like, Amar Hanspal Netflix didn’t have a library of content, Amar Hanspal that streaming that they started with and built it backwards, Amar Hanspal as opposed to the guys who had the content library and were trying to figure out Amar Hanspal how to stream it. Amar Hanspal So I think that’s, I’m just going for door number two. Amar Hanspal I was like, hey, Amar Hanspal How do you create an AI native experience for design? Amar Hanspal And then we’ll figure out what geometry needs to do as opposed to you’ve got Amar Hanspal geometry and now you have to figure out what you can do.
Brian Bell00:27:24 Yeah. Brian Bell It’s interesting that you brought up the streaming example because I feel like some Brian Bell of the incumbents like Disney have caught up there. Brian Bell You know, they’re like, hey, we have this back catalog. Brian Bell Why license it out to some third party? Brian Bell We’ll just build our own streaming platform, right? Brian Bell And you probably have to think about this as a founder a lot. Brian Bell You know, am I going to railroad it by, okay, a feature inside of the Brian Bell existing incumbent platform.
Amar Hanspal00:27:46 Absolutely. Amar Hanspal I mean, Brian, two things. Amar Hanspal One is it’s not a zero-sum game to look at. Amar Hanspal Both Netflix and Disney can have good businesses. Amar Hanspal And then always the fight between an incumbent and a startup comes down to whether Amar Hanspal the startup can get distribution before the incumbent can get innovation. Amar Hanspal I think the A16Z guys had said that. Amar Hanspal So we’re going to bet on the fact that we’ll get to distribution fast.
Brian Bell00:28:09 Yeah. Brian Bell The distribution versus innovation. Brian Bell How have you measured for your architect users how much faster they are with your platform? Brian Bell Because you hear about anecdotes, Brian Bell you know, Brian Bell when you’re using cursor, Brian Bell you’re three to five, Brian Bell maybe 10x faster as a as a developer.
Amar Hanspal00:28:24 It’s early days. Amar Hanspal I don’t think I could give you a credible answer that if you ask me. Amar Hanspal That question in six months, I’ll give you a better answer. Amar Hanspal I think we’re getting a little bit more of the emotional feedback today than quantitative. Amar Hanspal So it’s like you go, oh, this is so much better. Amar Hanspal Oh, thank God. Amar Hanspal Like, Amar Hanspal but they’re not telling me, Amar Hanspal well, Amar Hanspal this used to take three hours and I can do it in three minutes. Amar Hanspal There’s just a sense that they are welcoming someone who’s trying to do something Amar Hanspal completely new and different.
Brian Bell00:28:51 Making their lives easier. Brian Bell Speaking of six months out, Brian Bell what does success look like for you guys as you look out three to five years?
Amar Hanspal00:28:56 In the short term, obviously adoption, like we want people who love our product. Amar Hanspal Like to say some number, Amar Hanspal pick somewhere between, Amar Hanspal not zero, Amar Hanspal somewhere between like 25 and 100 people who are like, Amar Hanspal this is the bee’s knees. Amar Hanspal I love it. Amar Hanspal Like, you know, you hear it about Figma, you hear it about Notion, you hear it about Slack. Amar Hanspal We want to be one of those companies where people say, Amar Hanspal love the thing that these guys have built. Amar Hanspal Longer term, five years out, we really want to feel like we changed the industry. Amar Hanspal And the way we would measure that is the next major building project you walk into, Amar Hanspal like let’s say San Francisco Airport, Amar Hanspal Terminal 3 is being done. Amar Hanspal We want to see that being done on our platform. Amar Hanspal Then we feel like, okay, that’s success. Amar Hanspal People are betting these major projects on our platform.
Brian Bell00:29:38 Cool. Brian Bell Let’s wrap up. Brian Bell Let’s ignite some rapid insights. Brian Bell I just came up with that. Brian Bell That’s what we’re going to call this segment now. Brian Bell It’s the first time I said that, but going forward, that’s what it’s called. Brian Bell What advice would you give now to engineers working in AEC who want to build modern tools? Brian Bell Can you pause on this?
Amar Hanspal00:29:53 I mean, what I’d say is start with the problem. Amar Hanspal It’s too easy to start with the technology. Amar Hanspal Everybody wants to do AI something. Amar Hanspal I think certainly you will use that, but start with a problem that people have not solved.
Brian Bell00:30:05 Yeah, I love that. Brian Bell What’s a misconception people have about design software, Brian Bell the BIM space that you wish more folks understood?
Amar Hanspal00:30:12 That it needs to be hard to use and very technical. Amar Hanspal I think that is more a reflection of how it has been implemented. Amar Hanspal I think it can be a lot easier than it is to
Brian Bell00:30:21 What past project in your career are you most proud of and why? Brian Bell Zen Motif, of course.
Amar Hanspal00:30:26 It was the cloud transformation at Autodesk. Amar Hanspal Taking a team of 3,000 people working on 60 different products and helping everyone Amar Hanspal sort of embrace the cloud and leverage it to the best of their ability. Amar Hanspal And as part of that, starting the construction business at Autodesk. Amar Hanspal Really, it was really hard to do. Amar Hanspal It was also a lot of fun to do.
Brian Bell00:30:47 Yeah, that was quite the lift. Brian Bell I mean, you guys did it. Brian Bell Adobe did it famously. Brian Bell Microsoft did a pretty good job as well. Brian Bell Exactly.
Amar Hanspal00:30:56 We were early in those days. Amar Hanspal Right after Adobe, we were early in the subscription transition. Amar Hanspal And the difference between them and us was they led with the business model Amar Hanspal followed with the product. Amar Hanspal We led with the product followed with the business model.
Brian Bell00:31:08 Yeah, maybe you could tug on that thread a bit. Brian Bell What does that mean?
Amar Hanspal00:31:10 It means that Adobe started charging for desktop products in a subscription way and Amar Hanspal then started architecting the desktop products to be more cloud-centric. Amar Hanspal We started with architecting the products to be cloud-centric and then layering on Amar Hanspal the subscription model. Amar Hanspal So it was a difference. Amar Hanspal Ultimately, we both reached the same destination. Amar Hanspal But I think Adobe figured out the financial structures first. Amar Hanspal We figured out the technology first.
Brian Bell00:31:34 And which way do you think is better or just two sides of a coin?
Amar Hanspal00:31:38 It’s two sides of the same coin. Amar Hanspal Now, if you watch companies do it, they’re doing both simultaneously. Amar Hanspal At that time, it was like, you know, we had a stronger, I would say, DNA around product. Amar Hanspal Those guys had really good business sense. Amar Hanspal And so that’s kind of like we learned from them on that. Amar Hanspal They learned from us on this.
Brian Bell00:31:53 Adobe was led by a Berkeley Haas MBA. Brian Bell If you could go back, what decision would you change in your career trajectory? Brian Bell Something small but meaningful.
Amar Hanspal00:32:01 I would take more risks sooner, I would say. Amar Hanspal And then I think I came on to entrepreneurship a little too late. Amar Hanspal I think I would have started doing that a lot earlier in my career.
Brian Bell00:32:11 Yeah, I remember back in my 20s, people saying that just take more risks. Brian Bell You talk to people in their 60s, 70s, you know, what do you wish you did better? Brian Bell You watch, you know, retrospective life retrospectives, videos on YouTube or something. Brian Bell And that’s pretty much the number one thing that people say is, you know, take more risks.
Amar Hanspal00:32:26 Yeah. Amar Hanspal I think it helps you learn faster. Amar Hanspal It’s not just about the thrill of the ride. Amar Hanspal It’s also that I think, you know, you say no pain, no gain. Amar Hanspal Like in some ways, it’s like entrepreneurship is equivalent to like lifting weights in the gym. Amar Hanspal Like you have to do a lot of heavy lifting to make it work. Amar Hanspal I think that’s why I would say I would take more risk.
Brian Bell00:32:44 Yeah. Brian Bell What’s a book, Brian Bell paper or thought leader who has influenced how you think about building tools for Brian Bell makers and designers?
Amar Hanspal00:32:51 Look, there’s a few things I’ve read that have really stuck with me. Amar Hanspal I do think Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, Amar Hanspal like that was one of the things that I read early on that really stuck with me. Amar Hanspal It was not about building products, Amar Hanspal but just how do you think about approaching challenges in your career? Amar Hanspal I think the biography of the Shoe Dog, sorry, Shoe Dog by Phil Knight. Amar Hanspal Yeah, Shoe Dog, yeah. Amar Hanspal Autobiography of Nike. Amar Hanspal You know, it’s a story of just how hard this stuff is. Amar Hanspal And you look back at Nike’s huge company, Amar Hanspal you think it’s instant success, Amar Hanspal but it’s really so much and so many close calls. Amar Hanspal He almost like, he went out of business a few times and all the hustle. Amar Hanspal Like that’s a really fascinating story. Amar Hanspal Just stuck with me about resilience and sticking with it. Amar Hanspal And then I think when this comes down to the art and creativity, Amar Hanspal craft of building. Amar Hanspal There’s the go-to-market stuff that Jeffrey Moore with Crossing the Chasm had come up with. Amar Hanspal Those are the books that stick with me.
Brian Bell00:33:44 How do you stay close to users and firms while pushing for ambitious, disruptive innovation?
Amar Hanspal00:33:49 Some of it is just making time for it, Brian. Amar Hanspal I mean, it’s like, you know, what I... Amar Hanspal I enjoy learning. Amar Hanspal So in this particular project, Amar Hanspal the thing that I enjoy doing the most is just hearing and asking an architect, Amar Hanspal like, Amar Hanspal what are you working on? Amar Hanspal And they’ll tell me about some stadium or community center or museum they’re working on from Amar Hanspal From there, you start getting sort of like, okay, what’s happened here? Amar Hanspal What’s your challenge? Amar Hanspal I think I try very hard to sit in their context first rather than how are you using Amar Hanspal software to design buildings? Amar Hanspal Like that is an awkward conversation. Amar Hanspal You just start with the thing that comes naturally. Amar Hanspal You can lead to better places. Amar Hanspal One, I make time. Amar Hanspal Two, I’m curious about... Amar Hanspal their day and then yeah i think you just have to learn this instinct of going Amar Hanspal between 5 000 feet and 50 000 feet like you have to be flexed between both of those
Brian Bell00:34:41 hikes if you want to do the right thing so if and when motif succeeds what will be Brian Bell the metric that surprises people that some others aren’t anticipating
Amar Hanspal00:34:50 number of users. Amar Hanspal I do believe that, Amar Hanspal you know, Amar Hanspal people think building design software is used by a niche group of people. Amar Hanspal I think the huge opportunity here is to blow the doors open and think about Amar Hanspal touching all of the millions of people that interact with structures that has not. Amar Hanspal I’d like to be the first like 100 million user company in the world of building design software.
Brian Bell00:35:10 Awesome. Brian Bell Well, thanks for coming on. Brian Bell I learned a ton about this space. Brian Bell Where can folks find you online?
Amar Hanspal00:35:15 One, they can write me at amar.hanspal at motif.io. Amar Hanspal My Twitter handle is at amarhanspal. Amar Hanspal Either way. Amar Hanspal And then on LinkedIn, of course.
Brian Bell00:35:23 Awesome. Brian Bell Thanks for coming on.
Amar Hanspal00:35:25 My pleasure, Brian. Amar Hanspal Thanks for having me. Amar Hanspal This was fun.
