Amar Hanspal (00:00:00): If you start something, you better care about the problem you’re trying to solve. Amar Hanspal (00:00:03): Otherwise, you’ll get bored and you’ll drop out after a while. Amar Hanspal (00:00:06): That’s one. Amar Hanspal (00:00:07): Second thing I’ve learned is that the art of all of this is it’s all about execution. Amar Hanspal (00:00:11): I hear so many people come and tell me, Amar Hanspal (00:00:13): this competitor is doing this, Amar Hanspal (00:00:15): the competitor is doing that. Amar Hanspal (00:00:16): None of that actually matters. Amar Hanspal (00:00:17): What really matters is the thing that you’re trying to do. Amar Hanspal (00:00:20): Are you able to keep iterating? Amar Hanspal (00:00:23): Whether you listen to customers, the people who succeed very well, Amar Hanspal (00:00:27): The example you gave about the warmly gentleman, like you open, close. Amar Hanspal (00:00:30): That is the art of building, which is like you listen. Amar Hanspal (00:00:33): You try something. Amar Hanspal (00:00:35): You figure it out. Amar Hanspal (00:00:35): Does it work? Amar Hanspal (00:00:36): You iterate. Amar Hanspal (00:00:37): Execution is a huge amount of the challenge that you need to take on. Amar Hanspal (00:00:41): It’s not the original idea. Amar Hanspal (00:00:43): And then the third one is that the team is everything. Amar Hanspal (00:00:46): Startups to me, the team you build is the product you build is the company you build. Amar Hanspal (00:00:50): It’s so true.
Brian Bell (00:01:12): Hey, everyone. Brian Bell (00:01:13): Welcome back to the Ignite podcast. Brian Bell (00:01:14): Today, we’re thrilled to have Amar Hanspal on the mic. Brian Bell (00:01:17): He is a veteran of design software, Brian Bell (00:01:19): former co-CEO and CPO at Autodesk, Brian Bell (00:01:21): founder of Bright Machines, Brian Bell (00:01:23): and now leading the charge at Motif, Brian Bell (00:01:24): a startup reimagining tools for architecture, Brian Bell (00:01:27): engineering, Brian Bell (00:01:27): and construction. Brian Bell (00:01:29): Amar, thanks for coming on. Brian Bell (00:01:30): Hey, Brian. Brian Bell (00:01:30): Thanks for having me. Brian Bell (00:01:31): Good to be here. Brian Bell (00:01:32): Yeah, super excited to sit down with you today. Brian Bell (00:01:34): I’d love to get your origin story for the audience. Brian Bell (00:01:36): What’s your background?
Amar Hanspal (00:01:37): I grew up as a mechanical engineer. Amar Hanspal (00:01:38): That’s what I was trained to do. Amar Hanspal (00:01:40): And I know it’s kind of sounds quaint that, Amar Hanspal (00:01:43): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:01:43): I would talk about the eighties and stuff like that, Amar Hanspal (00:01:45): but I kind of got introduced to using computers for engineering back in the Amar Hanspal (00:01:50): eighties. Amar Hanspal (00:01:50): And that kind of led one thing led to another. Amar Hanspal (00:01:52): And that’s kind of how I got involved with CAD back in the late eighties. Amar Hanspal (00:01:56): And in those days, Amar Hanspal (00:01:58): It used to run on sort of what people used to call microvaxes, Amar Hanspal (00:02:02): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:02:02): sort of mini computers. Amar Hanspal (00:02:04): They’re still, you know, sit in a closet and stuff like that. Amar Hanspal (00:02:07): But I did that at the university, kind of got hooked on it. Amar Hanspal (00:02:11): PCs started emerging. Amar Hanspal (00:02:13): CAD got onto the PC. Amar Hanspal (00:02:15): I ended up in California by accident and stumbled on Autodesk in 87, Amar Hanspal (00:02:19): when it was a really small company. Amar Hanspal (00:02:22): with 250 people, just getting started, had one product, which was called AutoCAD at the time. Amar Hanspal (00:02:26): I just kind of got hooked on that whole experience of watching innovation, Amar Hanspal (00:02:34): doing something on a disruptive kind of, Amar Hanspal (00:02:36): PCs were very new and exciting at that time. Amar Hanspal (00:02:39): And my first job was actually doing technical support. Amar Hanspal (00:02:42): I used to take, in the days of phone calls, I used to take 100 phone calls a day from customers. Amar Hanspal (00:02:47): And that was a good training ground for Amar Hanspal (00:02:49): Not just understanding how people are using the software, Amar Hanspal (00:02:52): but actually understanding how customers operate emotionally. Amar Hanspal (00:02:56): Like how do you listen well? Amar Hanspal (00:02:57): How do you kind of draw synthesis of what’s important to them? Amar Hanspal (00:03:02): And in some ways, Amar Hanspal (00:03:03): those were the dots that connected that led me to then do product management and Amar Hanspal (00:03:07): business leadership. Amar Hanspal (00:03:08): And that’s kind of the snowball of what led me to what I ended up doing.
Brian Bell (00:03:11): Yeah, I love that. Brian Bell (00:03:12): Sitting on the phone 100 calls a day really creates a lot of empathy for the Brian Bell (00:03:17): customer and how they’re using it, Brian Bell (00:03:19): what their problems are. Brian Bell (00:03:20): It’s a good place to start, Brian Bell (00:03:21): I think, Brian Bell (00:03:21): if you’re 22, Brian Bell (00:03:23): 23 years old and out of college and you don’t know where to start. Brian Bell (00:03:26): Support or sales is a really, both, is a really good place to start building that empathy.
Amar Hanspal (00:03:31): Absolutely. Amar Hanspal (00:03:31): 100% agree with you. Amar Hanspal (00:03:32): And I think just so many stories from those days, Amar Hanspal (00:03:36): very entertaining experiences, Amar Hanspal (00:03:39): but I learned a lot. Amar Hanspal (00:03:40): And I was fortunate to do that both in the United States and I had two and a half Amar Hanspal (00:03:44): years out in Europe. Amar Hanspal (00:03:45): So actually also exposed me to like a global, Amar Hanspal (00:03:48): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:03:48): reality of doing business around the world. Amar Hanspal (00:03:50): So what happened next? Amar Hanspal (00:03:51): there were two or three formative experiences for me in this, Amar Hanspal (00:03:54): like, Amar Hanspal (00:03:54): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:03:54): so when I, Amar Hanspal (00:03:55): I did customer support for like seven years and that whole idea of like listening Amar Hanspal (00:03:58): to customers led me to start doing product management. Amar Hanspal (00:04:02): And this was in the mid nineties. Amar Hanspal (00:04:04): And I just got put on a project that was of critical importance to the company. Amar Hanspal (00:04:08): It is, you know, that time we were re-architecting the product, the, Amar Hanspal (00:04:12): hadn’t gone well and the company was lurching into a bit of a financial crisis. Amar Hanspal (00:04:17): And that product management experience for me was like a very fast way of like Amar Hanspal (00:04:22): learning how to translate, Amar Hanspal (00:04:23): bridging both sort of empathy with customers into creating value. Amar Hanspal (00:04:27): Like there’s no other way. Amar Hanspal (00:04:28): Again, in two and a half years, I just very quickly had to learn Amar Hanspal (00:04:31): not only how you listen well, Amar Hanspal (00:04:33): but how do you select well from everything that you’re listening so you can come up Amar Hanspal (00:04:36): with a win-win. Amar Hanspal (00:04:37): And then in 99, my second experience, so that one was actually a successful experience. Amar Hanspal (00:04:42): And they always say like you learn a lot more from your failures. Amar Hanspal (00:04:45): So the next thing I ended up doing, Amar Hanspal (00:04:46): I actually left Autodesk in the late 90s and in the Web 1.0 world, Amar Hanspal (00:04:51): two friends and I tried to build a Amar Hanspal (00:04:55): In those days, you know, online B2B kind of commerce company. Amar Hanspal (00:05:00): Two and a half years, it was, again, learned a lot. Amar Hanspal (00:05:03): We failed. Amar Hanspal (00:05:04): We didn’t get far enough. Amar Hanspal (00:05:05): And that one taught me about sales. Amar Hanspal (00:05:08): That experience was all about, Amar Hanspal (00:05:09): like, Amar Hanspal (00:05:10): as an entrepreneur, Amar Hanspal (00:05:11): one of the things that you have to learn to do is ask for money. Amar Hanspal (00:05:13): Because in a large company, Amar Hanspal (00:05:15): you have all these teams and functions and you build a product and somebody else Amar Hanspal (00:05:19): goes and sells it for you. Amar Hanspal (00:05:20): In a small company, you are chief cook and bottle washer all at the same time, right? Amar Hanspal (00:05:25): So we had the experience of not just having to build a product, Amar Hanspal (00:05:28): but then going and showing it to a customer and say, Amar Hanspal (00:05:30): will you pay us for this? Amar Hanspal (00:05:31): And that was a really humbling experience. Amar Hanspal (00:05:34): And that was my second really formative experience. Amar Hanspal (00:05:37): And then what happened for me after that, Amar Hanspal (00:05:40): after that company folded in the first dot-com bubble that went down in early 2000s Amar Hanspal (00:05:46): was I came back to Autodesk and got put into a bunch of P&L roles and sort of, Amar Hanspal (00:05:51): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:05:52): started with a $5 million business that became 50, Amar Hanspal (00:05:55): then got put on the $800 million business and got put on the $2.5 billion business Amar Hanspal (00:06:00): and then on the entire company. Amar Hanspal (00:06:02): That’s sort of what
Brian Bell (00:06:02): Amazing. Brian Bell (00:06:03): And it sounds like that was maybe also a lesson in timing too, right? Brian Bell (00:06:08): Because it sounded like, you know, it’s the internet. Brian Bell (00:06:10): Hey, let’s bring B2B commerce online. Brian Bell (00:06:12): And not everyone was ready to transact like that, probably at that point.
Amar Hanspal (00:06:15): And yeah, you’re absolutely right, Brian. Amar Hanspal (00:06:18): It was timing. Amar Hanspal (00:06:19): It was also, Amar Hanspal (00:06:20): you come up with ideas in like sitting around whiteboarding, Amar Hanspal (00:06:23): but when you go ask a customer, Amar Hanspal (00:06:25): they’re like, Amar Hanspal (00:06:26): that’s not my problem. Amar Hanspal (00:06:27): This is my problem. Amar Hanspal (00:06:28): And then you’re trying to like pivot and all those kinds of things. Amar Hanspal (00:06:31): And Amar Hanspal (00:06:32): All of those learnings were good, but we ultimately ran out of time to be able to get it done.
Brian Bell (00:06:38): A couple of podcast episodes before you, Brian Bell (00:06:40): Max was on from Warmly and he talked about open and closed periods where you go Brian Bell (00:06:44): into a closed period and you’re like, Brian Bell (00:06:46): you’re going to go after the idea and you set a timeline, Brian Bell (00:06:50): you know, Brian Bell (00:06:50): 30 days. Brian Bell (00:06:51): And if you’re not feeling the market pull, Brian Bell (00:06:53): you switch and go to an open period where you kind of try out some other ideas and Brian Bell (00:06:56): then you go back into a closed period. Brian Bell (00:06:58): I thought that was a really good analogy. Brian Bell (00:06:59): He went through six pivots himself. Brian Bell (00:07:01): Wow. Brian Bell (00:07:02): over five years before you really found product market fit. Brian Bell (00:07:05): So what happened next? Brian Bell (00:07:06): So did you guys actually raise some money for this startup?
Amar Hanspal (00:07:09): Yeah. Amar Hanspal (00:07:10): So as part of that first startup experience, we raised $17 million. Amar Hanspal (00:07:15): I always call it, it was my $17 million MBA. Amar Hanspal (00:07:18): We learned a lot. Amar Hanspal (00:07:19): Yeah, when the startup folded, we did return money to investors. Amar Hanspal (00:07:22): We hadn’t used it all up, so we did return. Amar Hanspal (00:07:24): And then when I went back to Autodesk and started running those P&Ls, Amar Hanspal (00:07:28): the project that sort of... Amar Hanspal (00:07:30): And again, Amar Hanspal (00:07:30): there were two projects for me that really were meaningful. Amar Hanspal (00:07:34): One was what the investor world understands is our transition to subscription. Amar Hanspal (00:07:40): So we were... Amar Hanspal (00:07:41): An on-premise company, on-premise for Autodesk was on desktop effectively. Amar Hanspal (00:07:45): Over the course of almost a decade, Amar Hanspal (00:07:48): we tried to build products that were either cloud-native or hybrid to support the Amar Hanspal (00:07:54): overall goals of the company. Amar Hanspal (00:07:55): And that was a really, really fascinating change management project to run a Amar Hanspal (00:08:01): Large product organization of 3,000 people through that change was a lot. Amar Hanspal (00:08:05): And then as part of that, Amar Hanspal (00:08:07): go after a completely new area that Autodesk didn’t have any business in, Amar Hanspal (00:08:12): which was construction. Amar Hanspal (00:08:14): And we were able to leverage mobile and web to go after a segment that we had not serviced. Amar Hanspal (00:08:20): previously. Amar Hanspal (00:08:20): And that was the next thing that we were able to go to. Amar Hanspal (00:08:23): So those were like really fun projects, Amar Hanspal (00:08:25): which led me to the chief product officer role because of, Amar Hanspal (00:08:28): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:08:28): we were able to pull this off and then also the co-CEO of the company as we went Amar Hanspal (00:08:34): into the next era.
Brian Bell (00:08:35): Amazing. Brian Bell (00:08:36): And then at some point you transitioned into Bright Machines. Brian Bell (00:08:38): Maybe you could talk about that transition and how did that come about?
Amar Hanspal (00:08:41): So in 2017, I left Autodesk. Amar Hanspal (00:08:44): It has to do with the fact that we had an activist investor and there were some Amar Hanspal (00:08:50): I vaguely recall the news on that.
Brian Bell (00:08:51): Yeah,
Amar Hanspal (00:08:52): there was a lot of discussions whether we keep going down the innovation route or Amar Hanspal (00:08:56): optimize the business models. Amar Hanspal (00:08:57): I was firmly in the innovation camp. Amar Hanspal (00:08:59): Like that’s what I believed in driving growth. Amar Hanspal (00:09:01): And so I left in 2017. Amar Hanspal (00:09:03): And I think at that time, Amar Hanspal (00:09:05): just that vector has continued to this day is that there’s so much new capabilities Amar Hanspal (00:09:10): coming online. Amar Hanspal (00:09:11): And at that time, I was very fascinated by computer vision. Amar Hanspal (00:09:14): What I like saying is that in the mid... Amar Hanspal (00:09:18): 20, it became clear that computers could see in addition to computers being able to count. Amar Hanspal (00:09:24): And so you’re like, what problems can you go solve now that computers can see? Amar Hanspal (00:09:27): And you look at Waymo today, autonomous cars, you look at drones and flying objects. Amar Hanspal (00:09:33): And so we got interested, Brian and I, in assembly lines, like manufacturing. Amar Hanspal (00:09:38): And Bright Machines was a result of that. Amar Hanspal (00:09:40): We got connected to this team in a Amar Hanspal (00:09:43): manufacturing firm called flextronics that was trying to deploy robotics in a scale Amar Hanspal (00:09:50): and a lot of the problems that they were having we thought okay we can go solve Amar Hanspal (00:09:53): using computer vision operation picking placing all these things were vision driven Amar Hanspal (00:09:58): challenges so bright machines was about giving as i say eyes and brains to robots Amar Hanspal (00:10:04): and uh that was a really fun project we did that for three years Amar Hanspal (00:10:08): from 2018 to about the end of 2021. Amar Hanspal (00:10:10): The company’s still around. Amar Hanspal (00:10:13): I decided to want to leave it and go back to the building industry. Amar Hanspal (00:10:16): So we had done factories and that’s kind of what this current project is about. Amar Hanspal (00:10:21): But that was my bright machines.
Brian Bell (00:10:22): And so the, yeah, the current project is motif. Brian Bell (00:10:24): Maybe you could talk about that, the conception. Brian Bell (00:10:26): What was your aha moment to start that?
Amar Hanspal (00:10:28): The origin story of Motif is the following. Amar Hanspal (00:10:30): I wanted to do something in the building industry because it’s simply so important to humanity. Amar Hanspal (00:10:37): I know that kind of sounds a little grandiose, Amar Hanspal (00:10:39): but, Amar Hanspal (00:10:39): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:10:40): the building industry employs the second largest number of people in the world. Amar Hanspal (00:10:43): It’s 23 million people who work in the building industry. Amar Hanspal (00:10:46): It contributes 40% of greenhouse gases. Amar Hanspal (00:10:49): It’s got a huge carbon footprint. Amar Hanspal (00:10:51): So if you start thinking about doing something good for the planet, Amar Hanspal (00:10:54): the building industry is a great place to start. Amar Hanspal (00:10:56): And for me, just where I’m in my career, I was like, I got one project left. Amar Hanspal (00:11:00): I want to do something meaningful. Amar Hanspal (00:11:02): I’ve had my fun in terms of career and things like that. Amar Hanspal (00:11:06): Let’s go do something that has a... Amar Hanspal (00:11:08): potential to have a big impact here so we picked the billing industry and the more Amar Hanspal (00:11:13): time we spent at it and i’d spent a bunch of time at autodesk but it had been seven Amar Hanspal (00:11:17): years and i came back to this industry and said like what’s an unsolved problem Amar Hanspal (00:11:21): here and what became more and more clear to us as we brian and i investigated this Amar Hanspal (00:11:26): was that the design stack for buildings had not changed in 27 years while the Amar Hanspal (00:11:33): methods had evolved Amar Hanspal (00:11:35): So you had all these interesting buildings, Amar Hanspal (00:11:37): new materials, Amar Hanspal (00:11:38): new methods, Amar Hanspal (00:11:39): new generation, Amar Hanspal (00:11:40): but people were using things that were software systems that were designed in the Amar Hanspal (00:11:44): late 90s, Amar Hanspal (00:11:44): like 1998 was the state of the art. Amar Hanspal (00:11:47): And I was like, that was what stood out to us. Amar Hanspal (00:11:50): And then the more time we spent with Amar Hanspal (00:11:52): modern cloud machine learning technology and try to think through what we could do Amar Hanspal (00:11:56): differently, Amar Hanspal (00:11:57): it became clear that we could connect the dots, Amar Hanspal (00:11:59): modernize the design process, Amar Hanspal (00:12:01): as well as build something that could help people design better and address the Amar Hanspal (00:12:05): challenges of today, Amar Hanspal (00:12:06): which is what led us to Motif. Amar Hanspal (00:12:08): Now, Amar Hanspal (00:12:09): we’re only two years, Amar Hanspal (00:12:10): just over two years in our journey of like these things take five, Amar Hanspal (00:12:14): seven years to build. Amar Hanspal (00:12:15): So I would say we’re probably, our progress meter is 30% of the way through. Amar Hanspal (00:12:19): So we have a lot left to do, but that’s the journey we’re on.
Brian Bell (00:12:21): What are some of the core technical and UX challenges that you had to tackle first Brian Bell (00:12:26): or are currently tackling?
Amar Hanspal (00:12:28): First two that I think everyone can relate to is building industry is one that Amar Hanspal (00:12:33): involves a lot of players. Amar Hanspal (00:12:34): Like every project, Amar Hanspal (00:12:35): you have an architect, Amar Hanspal (00:12:36): you have a structural engineer, Amar Hanspal (00:12:38): you have a contractor, Amar Hanspal (00:12:39): you have specialty, Amar Hanspal (00:12:40): acoustic. Amar Hanspal (00:12:41): You have all these like, just like in healthcare, you have like, Amar Hanspal (00:12:44): special specialties that come together to take care of a patient the building Amar Hanspal (00:12:48): industry is the same way which is you get a team together to build this building Amar Hanspal (00:12:52): and so the ability to share information easily is not something that people have Amar Hanspal (00:12:59): access to today so that’s the one of the technical challenges the web is actually Amar Hanspal (00:13:03): good at this but to your user experience point of view designing a user experience Amar Hanspal (00:13:08): that just works well on top of that is not easy Amar Hanspal (00:13:11): So that’s one challenge. Amar Hanspal (00:13:12): Second, Amar Hanspal (00:13:13): I would say that is a challenge of just engineering from an engineering perspective Amar Hanspal (00:13:18): is that while browsers are great for ease of use, Amar Hanspal (00:13:23): they’re not great at handling huge amounts of data. Amar Hanspal (00:13:25): And if you think about a building and designing a building, Amar Hanspal (00:13:28): you have lots and lots of data that you need to bring to bear to the design Amar Hanspal (00:13:34): process. Amar Hanspal (00:13:34): So one of the other challenges we are tackling is how do you get huge amounts of Amar Hanspal (00:13:38): data to work inside a small browser and deal with all of the latency of the Amar Hanspal (00:13:44): internet and give a good experience? Amar Hanspal (00:13:45): So those are a couple of the early challenges. Amar Hanspal (00:13:47): There’s many more that we’re tackling that sound more nerdy if I get into it, Amar Hanspal (00:13:52): where you talk about parametrics and that starts becoming very domain specific. Amar Hanspal (00:13:56): But those are just a couple of the big things that we have to go tackling.
Brian Bell (00:13:59): You know, Brian Bell (00:14:00): it’s interesting if you look at the history of technology, Brian Bell (00:14:02): you know, Brian Bell (00:14:02): we went from mainframes to terminals to, Brian Bell (00:14:05): you know, Brian Bell (00:14:05): PCs on our desks back to kind of, Brian Bell (00:14:07): you know, Brian Bell (00:14:08): mainframes with the browsers or terminal, Brian Bell (00:14:10): right?
Amar Hanspal (00:14:10): Yes.
Brian Bell (00:14:11): Pretty crazy.
Amar Hanspal (00:14:12): Exactly.
Brian Bell (00:14:13): So who’s the customer and kind of what problem are you kind of solving for them?
Amar Hanspal (00:14:17): Right. Amar Hanspal (00:14:17): I mean, Amar Hanspal (00:14:18): the industry is very large and it consists of architects and engineering firms, Amar Hanspal (00:14:23): general contractors. Amar Hanspal (00:14:24): We’re beginning with architecture firms. Amar Hanspal (00:14:26): So I think they are the origin of design. Amar Hanspal (00:14:29): Every project starts with a sketch and early what they call a massing model. Amar Hanspal (00:14:34): And then it turns into a design. Amar Hanspal (00:14:36): So those people are our first customers. Amar Hanspal (00:14:39): Over time, we hope to serve many more people in the industry with a broader set of tools. Amar Hanspal (00:14:44): We’re starting with architecture firms, Amar Hanspal (00:14:45): and our first product is really focused on the sharing of information. Amar Hanspal (00:14:50): And the way I would describe it is if you’re used to whiteboarding tools like Miro, Amar Hanspal (00:14:55): or sharing, you know, for whatever, creating mood boards and sharing stuff. Amar Hanspal (00:15:00): Well, in the building industry, to share information, you have to make all of that work in 3D. Amar Hanspal (00:15:04): So our first product is like a 3D mirror where you can bring in information from Amar Hanspal (00:15:09): various data sources, Amar Hanspal (00:15:11): create the project, Amar Hanspal (00:15:12): recreate the project in a 3D digital form, Amar Hanspal (00:15:15): and then do a bunch of like what people would call review. Amar Hanspal (00:15:18): Like you’re able to give feedback on these designs, spot problems and things like that. Amar Hanspal (00:15:22): That’s our first product that is, again, one of many that we’re developing. Amar Hanspal (00:15:26): The next one we will develop for the architecture team at firms of this world is Amar Hanspal (00:15:32): actually a modeling application where people can start to add things like walls, Amar Hanspal (00:15:36): doors, Amar Hanspal (00:15:36): windows, Amar Hanspal (00:15:37): and things like that to actually create real buildings.
Brian Bell (00:15:40): How do you kind of meet the architects where they are with the current tooling? Brian Bell (00:15:42): Is it interoperable with existing formats and legacy platforms and AutoCAD and all that? Brian Bell (00:15:49): Yes, exactly. Brian Bell (00:15:50): Where do you integrate or replace?
Amar Hanspal (00:15:52): That’s a great question. Amar Hanspal (00:15:53): So we integrate really well. Amar Hanspal (00:15:56): So interoperability was like one of the fundamental. Amar Hanspal (00:15:59): We realized that we have to coexist with the existing tool set. Amar Hanspal (00:16:03): And we are going to have to coexist for a relatively long time because we’re coming Amar Hanspal (00:16:07): into an industry Amar Hanspal (00:16:08): has been using a set of tools for 27 years. Amar Hanspal (00:16:10): They’re not going to change over tomorrow. Amar Hanspal (00:16:12): They’ll take whatever, how many ever years it takes to change over. Amar Hanspal (00:16:15): So yeah, we import information. Amar Hanspal (00:16:17): We send information back. Amar Hanspal (00:16:19): We interoperate from the get-go so we can be part of the ecosystem. Amar Hanspal (00:16:23): Strategically, you know, I try to Amar Hanspal (00:16:25): Phrase this as it’s embrace and then replace. Amar Hanspal (00:16:28): So you’re taking on like an easy or becoming fitting into the workflow and then Amar Hanspal (00:16:33): hopefully getting the opportunity to do more for the customer. Amar Hanspal (00:16:36): So they start using the traditional tool less and less. Amar Hanspal (00:16:40): And, you know, and you do it like, you know, one, whatever analogy you want to use, like your. Amar Hanspal (00:16:45): don’t like this one where people say you boil the frog like you do it kind of like Amar Hanspal (00:16:49): gradually take over the the role of the main over time you you go back to the
Brian Bell (00:16:54): original legacy tool less and less and less exactly until until the point where wow Brian Bell (00:16:58): i’ve done the entire building in motif and i haven’t even gone back to my old tool
Amar Hanspal (00:17:04): Exactly.
Brian Bell (00:17:05): What is it about? Brian Bell (00:17:06): Is it kind of like a cursor for design, basically? Brian Bell (00:17:09): So it just helps you go faster and use AI?
Amar Hanspal (00:17:12): Yeah, the analogy I’d use is it’s a combination of Figma and cursor for buildings. Amar Hanspal (00:17:17): And when I look at Figma, it’s like, listen, it’s very accessible. Amar Hanspal (00:17:21): The ease of use is there. Amar Hanspal (00:17:22): It’s web-based and it’s collaborative. Amar Hanspal (00:17:25): Like it’s designed for that design. Amar Hanspal (00:17:27): the way of easy sharing and easy sort of creation. Amar Hanspal (00:17:30): And the cursor aspect of it is that it lifts the interaction model to being more Amar Hanspal (00:17:36): intelligent so that you’re not doing things pick and click, Amar Hanspal (00:17:39): pick and click, Amar Hanspal (00:17:40): pick and click. Amar Hanspal (00:17:40): You really can interact with the system and say, can you do this for me? Amar Hanspal (00:17:43): Can you do that for me? Amar Hanspal (00:17:45): You’re directing it as opposed to micromanaging it. Amar Hanspal (00:17:48): So that’s the combination. Amar Hanspal (00:17:50): And look, it’s a vertical tool. Amar Hanspal (00:17:53): So it’s very, really only works for this particular domain. Amar Hanspal (00:17:56): We try to understand buildings and understand the topology, Amar Hanspal (00:17:59): the practice, Amar Hanspal (00:18:01): the constraints of buildings, Amar Hanspal (00:18:03): and try to make that experience comfortable.
Brian Bell (00:18:05): How has go-to-market been for you? Brian Bell (00:18:07): What’s been challenging, Brian Bell (00:18:08): you know, Brian Bell (00:18:08): going from big company to small company, Brian Bell (00:18:10): back to big company, Brian Bell (00:18:11): back to small company?
Amar Hanspal (00:18:12): I enjoy that. Amar Hanspal (00:18:13): So, I mean, let me answer your question on go to market brand. Amar Hanspal (00:18:16): I mean, we’ve been fortunate that customers have really welcomed us with open arms. Amar Hanspal (00:18:20): We’ve got like we’ve been in market for six months. Amar Hanspal (00:18:23): We’ve got lots of people engaging with us, Amar Hanspal (00:18:26): giving us feedback, Amar Hanspal (00:18:27): buying the product, Amar Hanspal (00:18:29): using the product. Amar Hanspal (00:18:30): So even this first step that we’ve taken has been met very positively by customers. Amar Hanspal (00:18:35): We’re learning to do this at scale. Amar Hanspal (00:18:38): So we’re, Amar Hanspal (00:18:38): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:18:38): so far we’ve been doing it as, Amar Hanspal (00:18:40): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:18:40): I would say human-centric, Amar Hanspal (00:18:42): like human in the loop, Amar Hanspal (00:18:43): like everything we’re doing involves a human. Amar Hanspal (00:18:45): We’re going to go to more automated, what product-led growth kind of style of doing this. Amar Hanspal (00:18:50): Personally, Amar Hanspal (00:18:51): I’ve enjoyed the variety of like working at a large company where you have, Amar Hanspal (00:18:57): the wonderful thing about a large company is all this infrastructure and customer Amar Hanspal (00:19:00): base you can work with. Amar Hanspal (00:19:02): But you’ve got huge amounts of challenges and aligning and driving humans. Amar Hanspal (00:19:08): In a small company like ours, Amar Hanspal (00:19:10): the alignment and sort of collaboration within the company is straightforward. Amar Hanspal (00:19:15): It’s the fun part. Amar Hanspal (00:19:15): Everybody’s got one mission. Amar Hanspal (00:19:17): Yes, it’s harder to go. Amar Hanspal (00:19:19): You have to do so much yourself. Amar Hanspal (00:19:20): You don’t have infrastructure. Amar Hanspal (00:19:21): You don’t have customers. Amar Hanspal (00:19:22): You’ve got to do all of that heavy lifting yourself. Amar Hanspal (00:19:25): But on the other hand, it’s really invigorating. Amar Hanspal (00:19:28): I am drawn to innovation. Amar Hanspal (00:19:31): there’s no better place than a small startup to go experience that.
Brian Bell (00:19:35): Yeah. Brian Bell (00:19:35): I would love to get you further tug on that thread a little bit as someone who’s, Brian Bell (00:19:39): you know, Brian Bell (00:19:39): been an exec at big companies versus a founder. Brian Bell (00:19:42): How do you, how do you adjust to that? Brian Bell (00:19:45): And how would you advise maybe folks in their twenties and thirties listening to Brian Bell (00:19:49): the pod to think about taking the leap and doing a startup versus continuing to, Brian Bell (00:19:53): you know, Brian Bell (00:19:54): refine their skillset and in a larger corporate structure. Brian Bell (00:19:58): And yeah, what would you, what would you say to somebody in that? Brian Bell (00:20:00): I mean,
Amar Hanspal (00:20:00): I can talk for hours on that, Brian. Amar Hanspal (00:20:02): I mean, Amar Hanspal (00:20:02): what I’d say is that the things I’ve learned over the years, Amar Hanspal (00:20:05): maybe I’ll pick three things that I will emphasize. Amar Hanspal (00:20:09): First is that, Amar Hanspal (00:20:10): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:20:11): startups are easy to start and really hard to finish because, Amar Hanspal (00:20:14): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:20:15): you can have an idea. Amar Hanspal (00:20:16): And nowadays, Amar Hanspal (00:20:17): especially with all the vibe coding tools and all, Amar Hanspal (00:20:19): like you can get a prototype out and you might even get a couple of people say, Amar Hanspal (00:20:22): that’s cool. Amar Hanspal (00:20:23): to turn prototype into production code and then do all of this stuff around like oh Amar Hanspal (00:20:28): we need like this whole infrastructure and it needs to stand up 99.9 it needs to be Amar Hanspal (00:20:33): secure and you have a customer who pays you so the site can’t go down like that Amar Hanspal (00:20:37): stuff stuff becomes hard and then you have to try and scale and find more customers Amar Hanspal (00:20:42): so the journey when you decide to be an entrepreneur you’ve got to have it in you Amar Hanspal (00:20:47): that you’re not doing this for a quick flip Amar Hanspal (00:20:49): You know, Amar Hanspal (00:20:49): we all hear about a lovable went from zero to 500 million in like two days, Amar Hanspal (00:20:53): but that’s like the black swan event. Amar Hanspal (00:20:55): The majority of startups is a grind. Amar Hanspal (00:20:59): It’s more like climbing a mountain than anything else. Amar Hanspal (00:21:02): Like it’s really a grind and you kind of have to go through that. Amar Hanspal (00:21:05): So you kind of really care about the problem you’re going to solve. Amar Hanspal (00:21:08): So that’s the way I would say is that the one thing, Amar Hanspal (00:21:10): and I’m not saying any of this to scare anyone out, Amar Hanspal (00:21:13): is that if you start something, Amar Hanspal (00:21:14): you better care about the problem you’re trying to solve. Amar Hanspal (00:21:17): Otherwise you’ll get bored and you’ll drop out. Amar Hanspal (00:21:19): after a while. Amar Hanspal (00:21:19): Okay, that’s one. Amar Hanspal (00:21:21): Second thing I’ve learned is that the art of all of this is it’s all about execution. Amar Hanspal (00:21:25): Like I hear so many people come and tell me, Amar Hanspal (00:21:28): this competitor is doing this, Amar Hanspal (00:21:29): the competitor is doing that. Amar Hanspal (00:21:30): Like none of that actually matters. Amar Hanspal (00:21:31): What really matters is the thing that you’re trying to do. Amar Hanspal (00:21:34): Are you able to keep iterating? Amar Hanspal (00:21:37): Like whether you listen to customers, Amar Hanspal (00:21:38): like the people who succeed very well, Amar Hanspal (00:21:41): like the example you gave about the warmly gentleman, Amar Hanspal (00:21:44): like you open, Amar Hanspal (00:21:44): close. Amar Hanspal (00:21:45): That is the art of building, which is like you listen, you try something, Amar Hanspal (00:21:49): You figure it out. Amar Hanspal (00:21:50): Does it work? Amar Hanspal (00:21:51): You iterate. Amar Hanspal (00:21:52): Execution is a huge amount of the challenge that you need to take on. Amar Hanspal (00:21:56): It’s not the original idea. Amar Hanspal (00:21:58): And then the third one is that the team is everything. Amar Hanspal (00:22:01): Startups to me, Amar Hanspal (00:22:03): Vinod Khosla says the team you build is the product you build is the company you Amar Hanspal (00:22:06): build. Amar Hanspal (00:22:06): It’s so true. Amar Hanspal (00:22:08): The small teams, these are very much like if you’re an NBA fan, it’s like, that’s it. Amar Hanspal (00:22:12): You’re 15 people on a court. Amar Hanspal (00:22:14): That’s it. Amar Hanspal (00:22:15): And so you better get the right people in that small team. Amar Hanspal (00:22:19): roster that you have, those are the three most important things to me. Amar Hanspal (00:22:23): And the rest is you have to personally have good high amounts of energy and a lot Amar Hanspal (00:22:29): of curiosity and low ego. Amar Hanspal (00:22:31): You’re going to get beaten up a lot along the way. Amar Hanspal (00:22:34): But the fun that you have, Amar Hanspal (00:22:37): the thing that is really addictive about startups is that you watch things that are Amar Hanspal (00:22:43): just ideas come to life in such rapid fashion that it just becomes like this thing Amar Hanspal (00:22:49): of, Amar Hanspal (00:22:49): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:22:50): I had this moment where a year after Brian and I started the company, Amar Hanspal (00:22:53): we’re sitting at a dinner with the team and we look down the table and there’s all Amar Hanspal (00:22:57): of a sudden 20 people there. Amar Hanspal (00:22:58): You’re like, when did this happen? Amar Hanspal (00:23:00): And then you have a customer and then you have a, Amar Hanspal (00:23:03): company and then you have investors and all of a sudden this thing takes shape and Amar Hanspal (00:23:07): that’s just there’s no feeling like it in the world that’s amazing so thinking
Brian Bell (00:23:11): about ai and ml for a sec transforming architecture engineering construction what Brian Bell (00:23:17): are some realistic versus speculative bets and things you’re you’re making in this Brian Bell (00:23:21): area what are you excited about yeah
Amar Hanspal (00:23:24): So, look, I think the thing about the path forward to the AIML is, I think, twofold. Amar Hanspal (00:23:28): One is, Amar Hanspal (00:23:28): I think, Amar Hanspal (00:23:29): finding the mundane problems to go solve, Amar Hanspal (00:23:32): because architecture, Amar Hanspal (00:23:33): engineering, Amar Hanspal (00:23:33): and construction is filled with drudgery. Amar Hanspal (00:23:36): Like, you know, you think about the permitting process. Amar Hanspal (00:23:40): So, Amar Hanspal (00:23:40): you think about, Amar Hanspal (00:23:40): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:23:41): you think about architecture, Amar Hanspal (00:23:42): you think, Amar Hanspal (00:23:42): oh, Amar Hanspal (00:23:42): you’re this amazing Frank Gehry, Amar Hanspal (00:23:44): like, Amar Hanspal (00:23:44): designer coming up with this great idea. Amar Hanspal (00:23:47): Like, Amar Hanspal (00:23:47): 90% of what happens with buildings is you’ve got to produce a thousand drawings, Amar Hanspal (00:23:51): you’ve got to... Amar Hanspal (00:23:53): review a thousand drawings. Amar Hanspal (00:23:54): You then have to stamp a thousand drawings. Amar Hanspal (00:23:56): You got to go to the, like that’s the boring stuff. Amar Hanspal (00:23:59): So I think the opportunity of AI ML is actually to make all of that simpler rather Amar Hanspal (00:24:04): than the flashy stuff. Amar Hanspal (00:24:05): Like that’s the first thing I would say. Amar Hanspal (00:24:06): Second thing I would say is that you got to pay attention to where the foundation Amar Hanspal (00:24:10): models are evolving. Amar Hanspal (00:24:11): Like the stuff that is, Amar Hanspal (00:24:14): becoming more possible. Amar Hanspal (00:24:15): Like you watch the diffusion models get better, Amar Hanspal (00:24:18): things like Nano Banana and all these things showing up. Amar Hanspal (00:24:21): And the more the foundation models are capable of handling stuff, Amar Hanspal (00:24:24): the more you can do for this industry. Amar Hanspal (00:24:27): And so the opportunity is really the gap between the mundane user problem that Amar Hanspal (00:24:32): you’ve identified and what the foundation model does. Amar Hanspal (00:24:35): and you create this sort of fine tuning layer that connects those two that’s the Amar Hanspal (00:24:39): thing that that’s what i think we’re getting good at as a company as motif to go Amar Hanspal (00:24:44): solve the customers helping us identify the problems our engineers are figuring out Amar Hanspal (00:24:48): what the foundation models can do and we’re connecting those yeah it’s a really
Brian Bell (00:24:51): exciting time you know we have a platform shift right and you think about the tools Brian Bell (00:24:55): that were built you know 27 years ago that was kind of the last platform shift Brian Bell (00:24:59): right exactly Brian Bell (00:25:01): software and cloud delivered software internet you know then you had you know Brian Bell (00:25:06): mobile i guess but that wouldn’t impact architects that much this space as much so Brian Bell (00:25:11): really it kind of makes sense that the tools are 20 plus years old because you know Brian Bell (00:25:15): the the last platform shift happened that long ago Brian Bell (00:25:18): Right. Brian Bell (00:25:18): And now you have AI. Brian Bell (00:25:19): But to what degree, Brian Bell (00:25:20): you know, Brian Bell (00:25:21): do you think and I’m sure you wrestled with this question as you set out to do Brian Bell (00:25:24): another startup is like, Brian Bell (00:25:25): maybe I just go back to a big company and build AI tools tooling into the existing Brian Bell (00:25:30): platform platforms versus, Brian Bell (00:25:32): hey, Brian Bell (00:25:33): maybe maybe this platform shift enables completely new tool sets.
Amar Hanspal (00:25:37): So I picked door number two.
Brian Bell (00:25:40): So yeah,
Amar Hanspal (00:25:40): I mean, Amar Hanspal (00:25:40): I think, Amar Hanspal (00:25:40): look, Amar Hanspal (00:25:41): I think back to the strengths of a big company, Amar Hanspal (00:25:43): you have customers, Amar Hanspal (00:25:44): you potentially have access to data, Amar Hanspal (00:25:47): but you’re kind of constrained by the form factor of the tools that already exist. Amar Hanspal (00:25:51): And you’re watching people. Amar Hanspal (00:25:53): I mean, the most striking contrast is like you watch ChatGPT versus Google. Amar Hanspal (00:25:57): you know, Google. Amar Hanspal (00:25:58): I guess this whole tug of war is where are you going to get your questions answered? Amar Hanspal (00:26:03): And there is something very addictive about going to ChatGPT and turning this into Amar Hanspal (00:26:07): a conversation versus the Google search that we’ve been used to. Amar Hanspal (00:26:11): And I think that when I thought about the design problem, Amar Hanspal (00:26:14): for example, Amar Hanspal (00:26:15): current tools are very geometry centric, Amar Hanspal (00:26:18): right? Amar Hanspal (00:26:18): If you think about the way people design buildings, Amar Hanspal (00:26:21): you’re doing everything in shapes, Amar Hanspal (00:26:22): you’re doing a wall. Amar Hanspal (00:26:24): The reality of when you’re doing design is that you’re working in all of this Amar Hanspal (00:26:28): context of building codes and site constraints and things like that. Amar Hanspal (00:26:33): And so when you go with a clean sheet of paper, Amar Hanspal (00:26:35): you can really expand your thinking to go attack a bigger set of problems. Amar Hanspal (00:26:41): And that’s why I picked door number two is that let’s go do something from the Amar Hanspal (00:26:44): ground up, Amar Hanspal (00:26:45): which lets us... Amar Hanspal (00:26:46): clean sheet of paper, really. Amar Hanspal (00:26:48): And, Amar Hanspal (00:26:48): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:26:49): I also believe to the, Amar Hanspal (00:26:50): I think the point you’re making is, Amar Hanspal (00:26:51): I do think the big leaps in capabilities have come when people have fundamentally Amar Hanspal (00:26:56): reimagined and experienced, Amar Hanspal (00:26:57): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:26:58): Amazon with retail is like one of the best examples of Netflix. Amar Hanspal (00:27:01): You just start with like, Amar Hanspal (00:27:03): Netflix didn’t have a library of content, Amar Hanspal (00:27:05): that streaming that they started with and built it backwards, Amar Hanspal (00:27:08): as opposed to the guys who had the content library and were trying to figure out Amar Hanspal (00:27:12): how to stream it. Amar Hanspal (00:27:13): So I think that’s, I’m just going for door number two. Amar Hanspal (00:27:15): I was like, hey, Amar Hanspal (00:27:16): How do you create an AI native experience for design? Amar Hanspal (00:27:19): And then we’ll figure out what geometry needs to do as opposed to you’ve got Amar Hanspal (00:27:22): geometry and now you have to figure out what you can do.
Brian Bell (00:27:24): Yeah. Brian Bell (00:27:25): It’s interesting that you brought up the streaming example because I feel like some Brian Bell (00:27:29): of the incumbents like Disney have caught up there. Brian Bell (00:27:31): You know, they’re like, hey, we have this back catalog. Brian Bell (00:27:33): Why license it out to some third party? Brian Bell (00:27:36): We’ll just build our own streaming platform, right? Brian Bell (00:27:38): And you probably have to think about this as a founder a lot. Brian Bell (00:27:40): You know, am I going to railroad it by, okay, a feature inside of the Brian Bell (00:27:45): existing incumbent platform.
Amar Hanspal (00:27:46): Absolutely. Amar Hanspal (00:27:47): I mean, Brian, two things. Amar Hanspal (00:27:49): One is it’s not a zero-sum game to look at. Amar Hanspal (00:27:52): Both Netflix and Disney can have good businesses. Amar Hanspal (00:27:55): And then always the fight between an incumbent and a startup comes down to whether Amar Hanspal (00:27:59): the startup can get distribution before the incumbent can get innovation. Amar Hanspal (00:28:03): I think the A16Z guys had said that. Amar Hanspal (00:28:05): So we’re going to bet on the fact that we’ll get to distribution fast.
Brian Bell (00:28:09): Yeah. Brian Bell (00:28:10): The distribution versus innovation. Brian Bell (00:28:12): How have you measured for your architect users how much faster they are with your platform? Brian Bell (00:28:18): Because you hear about anecdotes, Brian Bell (00:28:19): you know, Brian Bell (00:28:19): when you’re using cursor, Brian Bell (00:28:20): you’re three to five, Brian Bell (00:28:21): maybe 10x faster as a as a developer.
Amar Hanspal (00:28:24): It’s early days. Amar Hanspal (00:28:25): I don’t think I could give you a credible answer that if you ask me. Amar Hanspal (00:28:29): That question in six months, I’ll give you a better answer. Amar Hanspal (00:28:31): I think we’re getting a little bit more of the emotional feedback today than quantitative. Amar Hanspal (00:28:35): So it’s like you go, oh, this is so much better. Amar Hanspal (00:28:38): Oh, thank God. Amar Hanspal (00:28:40): Like, Amar Hanspal (00:28:40): but they’re not telling me, Amar Hanspal (00:28:41): well, Amar Hanspal (00:28:41): this used to take three hours and I can do it in three minutes. Amar Hanspal (00:28:44): There’s just a sense that they are welcoming someone who’s trying to do something Amar Hanspal (00:28:49): completely new and different.
Brian Bell (00:28:51): Making their lives easier. Brian Bell (00:28:52): Speaking of six months out, Brian Bell (00:28:53): what does success look like for you guys as you look out three to five years?
Amar Hanspal (00:28:56): In the short term, obviously adoption, like we want people who love our product. Amar Hanspal (00:29:00): Like to say some number, Amar Hanspal (00:29:02): pick somewhere between, Amar Hanspal (00:29:03): not zero, Amar Hanspal (00:29:04): somewhere between like 25 and 100 people who are like, Amar Hanspal (00:29:07): this is the bee’s knees. Amar Hanspal (00:29:09): I love it. Amar Hanspal (00:29:09): Like, you know, you hear it about Figma, you hear it about Notion, you hear it about Slack. Amar Hanspal (00:29:13): We want to be one of those companies where people say, Amar Hanspal (00:29:16): love the thing that these guys have built. Amar Hanspal (00:29:17): Longer term, five years out, we really want to feel like we changed the industry. Amar Hanspal (00:29:22): And the way we would measure that is the next major building project you walk into, Amar Hanspal (00:29:27): like let’s say San Francisco Airport, Amar Hanspal (00:29:29): Terminal 3 is being done. Amar Hanspal (00:29:30): We want to see that being done on our platform. Amar Hanspal (00:29:32): Then we feel like, okay, that’s success. Amar Hanspal (00:29:35): People are betting these major projects on our platform.
Brian Bell (00:29:38): Cool. Brian Bell (00:29:38): Let’s wrap up. Brian Bell (00:29:39): Let’s ignite some rapid insights. Brian Bell (00:29:41): I just came up with that. Brian Bell (00:29:41): That’s what we’re going to call this segment now. Brian Bell (00:29:43): It’s the first time I said that, but going forward, that’s what it’s called. Brian Bell (00:29:45): What advice would you give now to engineers working in AEC who want to build modern tools? Brian Bell (00:29:52): Can you pause on this?
Amar Hanspal (00:29:53): I mean, what I’d say is start with the problem. Amar Hanspal (00:29:56): It’s too easy to start with the technology. Amar Hanspal (00:29:58): Everybody wants to do AI something. Amar Hanspal (00:30:00): I think certainly you will use that, but start with a problem that people have not solved.
Brian Bell (00:30:05): Yeah, I love that. Brian Bell (00:30:06): What’s a misconception people have about design software, Brian Bell (00:30:09): the BIM space that you wish more folks understood?
Amar Hanspal (00:30:12): That it needs to be hard to use and very technical. Amar Hanspal (00:30:15): I think that is more a reflection of how it has been implemented. Amar Hanspal (00:30:19): I think it can be a lot easier than it is to
Brian Bell (00:30:21): What past project in your career are you most proud of and why? Brian Bell (00:30:25): Zen Motif, of course.
Amar Hanspal (00:30:26): It was the cloud transformation at Autodesk. Amar Hanspal (00:30:29): Taking a team of 3,000 people working on 60 different products and helping everyone Amar Hanspal (00:30:35): sort of embrace the cloud and leverage it to the best of their ability. Amar Hanspal (00:30:40): And as part of that, starting the construction business at Autodesk. Amar Hanspal (00:30:44): Really, it was really hard to do. Amar Hanspal (00:30:45): It was also a lot of fun to do.
Brian Bell (00:30:47): Yeah, that was quite the lift. Brian Bell (00:30:48): I mean, you guys did it. Brian Bell (00:30:49): Adobe did it famously. Brian Bell (00:30:51): Microsoft did a pretty good job as well. Brian Bell (00:30:53): Exactly.
Amar Hanspal (00:30:56): We were early in those days. Amar Hanspal (00:30:58): Right after Adobe, we were early in the subscription transition. Amar Hanspal (00:31:02): And the difference between them and us was they led with the business model Amar Hanspal (00:31:05): followed with the product. Amar Hanspal (00:31:06): We led with the product followed with the business model.
Brian Bell (00:31:08): Yeah, maybe you could tug on that thread a bit. Brian Bell (00:31:10): What does that mean?
Amar Hanspal (00:31:10): It means that Adobe started charging for desktop products in a subscription way and Amar Hanspal (00:31:15): then started architecting the desktop products to be more cloud-centric. Amar Hanspal (00:31:19): We started with architecting the products to be cloud-centric and then layering on Amar Hanspal (00:31:23): the subscription model. Amar Hanspal (00:31:24): So it was a difference. Amar Hanspal (00:31:26): Ultimately, we both reached the same destination. Amar Hanspal (00:31:29): But I think Adobe figured out the financial structures first. Amar Hanspal (00:31:32): We figured out the technology first.
Brian Bell (00:31:34): And which way do you think is better or just two sides of a coin?
Amar Hanspal (00:31:38): It’s two sides of the same coin. Amar Hanspal (00:31:39): Now, if you watch companies do it, they’re doing both simultaneously. Amar Hanspal (00:31:43): At that time, it was like, you know, we had a stronger, I would say, DNA around product. Amar Hanspal (00:31:47): Those guys had really good business sense. Amar Hanspal (00:31:49): And so that’s kind of like we learned from them on that. Amar Hanspal (00:31:51): They learned from us on this.
Brian Bell (00:31:53): Adobe was led by a Berkeley Haas MBA. Brian Bell (00:31:56): If you could go back, what decision would you change in your career trajectory? Brian Bell (00:32:00): Something small but meaningful.
Amar Hanspal (00:32:01): I would take more risks sooner, I would say. Amar Hanspal (00:32:04): And then I think I came on to entrepreneurship a little too late. Amar Hanspal (00:32:07): I think I would have started doing that a lot earlier in my career.
Brian Bell (00:32:11): Yeah, I remember back in my 20s, people saying that just take more risks. Brian Bell (00:32:14): You talk to people in their 60s, 70s, you know, what do you wish you did better? Brian Bell (00:32:18): You watch, you know, retrospective life retrospectives, videos on YouTube or something. Brian Bell (00:32:22): And that’s pretty much the number one thing that people say is, you know, take more risks.
Amar Hanspal (00:32:26): Yeah. Amar Hanspal (00:32:27): I think it helps you learn faster. Amar Hanspal (00:32:28): It’s not just about the thrill of the ride. Amar Hanspal (00:32:31): It’s also that I think, you know, you say no pain, no gain. Amar Hanspal (00:32:34): Like in some ways, it’s like entrepreneurship is equivalent to like lifting weights in the gym. Amar Hanspal (00:32:38): Like you have to do a lot of heavy lifting to make it work. Amar Hanspal (00:32:41): I think that’s why I would say I would take more risk.
Brian Bell (00:32:44): Yeah. Brian Bell (00:32:44): What’s a book, Brian Bell (00:32:45): paper or thought leader who has influenced how you think about building tools for Brian Bell (00:32:50): makers and designers?
Amar Hanspal (00:32:51): Look, there’s a few things I’ve read that have really stuck with me. Amar Hanspal (00:32:55): I do think Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, Amar Hanspal (00:32:57): like that was one of the things that I read early on that really stuck with me. Amar Hanspal (00:33:01): It was not about building products, Amar Hanspal (00:33:03): but just how do you think about approaching challenges in your career? Amar Hanspal (00:33:07): I think the biography of the Shoe Dog, sorry, Shoe Dog by Phil Knight. Amar Hanspal (00:33:11): Yeah, Shoe Dog, yeah. Amar Hanspal (00:33:12): Autobiography of Nike. Amar Hanspal (00:33:13): You know, it’s a story of just how hard this stuff is. Amar Hanspal (00:33:16): And you look back at Nike’s huge company, Amar Hanspal (00:33:18): you think it’s instant success, Amar Hanspal (00:33:19): but it’s really so much and so many close calls. Amar Hanspal (00:33:23): He almost like, he went out of business a few times and all the hustle. Amar Hanspal (00:33:27): Like that’s a really fascinating story. Amar Hanspal (00:33:29): Just stuck with me about resilience and sticking with it. Amar Hanspal (00:33:33): And then I think when this comes down to the art and creativity, Amar Hanspal (00:33:36): craft of building. Amar Hanspal (00:33:38): There’s the go-to-market stuff that Jeffrey Moore with Crossing the Chasm had come up with. Amar Hanspal (00:33:43): Those are the books that stick with me.
Brian Bell (00:33:44): How do you stay close to users and firms while pushing for ambitious, disruptive innovation?
Amar Hanspal (00:33:49): Some of it is just making time for it, Brian. Amar Hanspal (00:33:51): I mean, it’s like, you know, what I... Amar Hanspal (00:33:53): I enjoy learning. Amar Hanspal (00:33:55): So in this particular project, Amar Hanspal (00:33:57): the thing that I enjoy doing the most is just hearing and asking an architect, Amar Hanspal (00:34:01): like, Amar Hanspal (00:34:01): what are you working on? Amar Hanspal (00:34:03): And they’ll tell me about some stadium or community center or museum they’re working on from Amar Hanspal (00:34:08): From there, you start getting sort of like, okay, what’s happened here? Amar Hanspal (00:34:12): What’s your challenge? Amar Hanspal (00:34:13): I think I try very hard to sit in their context first rather than how are you using Amar Hanspal (00:34:20): software to design buildings? Amar Hanspal (00:34:21): Like that is an awkward conversation. Amar Hanspal (00:34:23): You just start with the thing that comes naturally. Amar Hanspal (00:34:25): You can lead to better places. Amar Hanspal (00:34:28): One, I make time. Amar Hanspal (00:34:29): Two, I’m curious about... Amar Hanspal (00:34:30): their day and then yeah i think you just have to learn this instinct of going Amar Hanspal (00:34:35): between 5 000 feet and 50 000 feet like you have to be flexed between both of those
Brian Bell (00:34:41): hikes if you want to do the right thing so if and when motif succeeds what will be Brian Bell (00:34:45): the metric that surprises people that some others aren’t anticipating
Amar Hanspal (00:34:50): number of users. Amar Hanspal (00:34:50): I do believe that, Amar Hanspal (00:34:51): you know, Amar Hanspal (00:34:51): people think building design software is used by a niche group of people. Amar Hanspal (00:34:55): I think the huge opportunity here is to blow the doors open and think about Amar Hanspal (00:34:59): touching all of the millions of people that interact with structures that has not. Amar Hanspal (00:35:04): I’d like to be the first like 100 million user company in the world of building design software.
Brian Bell (00:35:10): Awesome. Brian Bell (00:35:10): Well, thanks for coming on. Brian Bell (00:35:11): I learned a ton about this space. Brian Bell (00:35:13): Where can folks find you online?
Amar Hanspal (00:35:15): One, they can write me at amar.hanspal at motif.io. Amar Hanspal (00:35:18): My Twitter handle is at amarhanspal. Amar Hanspal (00:35:21): Either way. Amar Hanspal (00:35:22): And then on LinkedIn, of course.
Brian Bell (00:35:23): Awesome. Brian Bell (00:35:24): Thanks for coming on.
Amar Hanspal (00:35:25): My pleasure, Brian. Amar Hanspal (00:35:25): Thanks for having me. Amar Hanspal (00:35:26): This was fun.
